http://dotabuff.com/matches/472031803 que time for this match was over 6 minutes: proving again that Valve lowers their quality of matches into the toilet on long que times.
Another example of a match that was impossible to win... In this game solo que, I was placed with 4 Russians, despite selecting English only. All 4 Russians solo qued. Did they all select English only? They all used Russian throughout the game. All 4 of them were very very bad at their heores compared to what I am used to seeing (probably average MMR) and the necrophos decided to intentionally throw the game besides doing plenty of intentional feeds not only of his hero but also couriers he got to feed more gold to the enemy. Two of them tried to solo mid and fought over it.
I really had a lot of fun this game trying to keep these guys alive despite their god-aweful positioning and frequent afks. It was great game to practice dazzle in a difficult circumstance. But again I could not have won this game with any hero... nor could most players even 1000 MMR higher than me.
Enemy pudge and mirrana could only hit still targets... but there were plenty of heroes standing still for them hit. So they got great scores and probably think they were amazing.
The biggest problem with the matching for this game was the language "preference". How much work would it really take to just have anyone who selected only one language NEVER be qued with anyone who selected any other language? How much work would it take to at least give people the choice to BAN other languages... "Click Here no foreign languages". I'm sure some Russians are such idiots that they select English only when they can only use Russian... but there is no way its as many as it seems from matching... they must be selecting English and Russian and still getting matched to me.
In other news I finally lose another game to jungle axe... yes, matching was so bad jungle axe won. Jungle axe now 7 wins 72 losses in games I have seen. Do not jungle with axe.
Yes languages is a gigantic problem. I play only on US servers so I don't usually get russians but I get a ton of south americans who clearly don't comprehend english. I get why they queue, the waits are probably better, possibly better ping, but it's so stupid.
And I have yet more examples of why mmr is so terrible because it can't account for being a complete retard when making picks. I still maintain that 80% of more of games are lost because of bad picks, not because the other team was necessarily better. In matching raw mechanical skill (like ability to last hit, map awareness) I feel the matchmaking is pretty good. No one usually just straight up out plays the other team, but you can be equal in skill and lose if other lane has more disables early or lose if your team doesn't know how to push against carry heavy teams etc.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471887501 In this match first guy randoms batrider. Not a very strong hero as of late, but whatever, if he wants to random the first pick fine. Rest of team takes forever to pick so I go wraith king cus I like him a lot and it's 2nd pick. Next two picks are band a jugger. Ok this might work out if last pick is another lane support or mid so bat can lane support but last pick is a NP who goes "I jungle ok". We are so f'd. Juggernaught won't shutup about going safe lane so I offlane on wraith king. Bane apparently doesn't speak english so he won't come bottom. I hang back as best I can but am vs pudge and vengeful, guys with long range cc. Needless to say we end up losing badly. Np was pretty terrible so I'm not sure we'd have won even if he went lane but the pick was just asinine and gave us no chance to win.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471913686 Next match was almost a complete reverse of what happened. First pick is chaos knight. I double up on melee carrys with stuns and go wraith king again, maybe not the smoothest move but again I pick early cus I want to play a carry I enjoy. I would never pick like that with 4th or 5th picks. Next guy picks medusa which is borderline indefensible, now we'll be force to lane two carries together and still have no mid. Fortunately the next guy picks an amazing support CM who's mana regen greatly helps wraith king, and last guy mids venge, which I don't see too often but it works ok.
Other team team is a whole different story. I didn't watch their pick order that closely but they told me bounty hunter picked last and they end up with bounty hunter and sven bottom vs me on wraith king and cm. We kill them a lot. They might have been able to salvage their picks if they had sent bounty off with timber and put disruptor bottom with sven, or even swapped bounty and timber. As it was all we had to do was drop a sentry totem and stun bounty whenever he tried to gank cm or stun sven after he hammered.
I don't know how you fix these issues with mmr but people need to stop being retards and making retarded picks.
MM takes into account people making retarded picks
if picks influence the outcome of the match and MM is increased or decreased based on the outcome of a match then the person making bad picks often will end up with a low MM. They will drop to a point where their skill level can overcome their poor decision making choices.
People need to stop using one match to say 'this does not work because I had a bad game'
It's quite interesting that people still think you have to speak the same language as your team to win at Dota. Try using any of the helpful tools Valve has implemented so far, like cross ping, drawing and the chat wheel.
How is the chat wheel going to help? I mean, I suppose you could say that they should understand at least a few sentences, but it also seems to go against the crux of your argument.
You don't have to speak the same language, but it certainly helps in a lot of instances. Especially those that require a bit more nuance beyond a ping.
it is easier to ignore russians than to deal with the fat fucking americans who sound like they can barely breath when they talk and sitting on the computer is hard labor for them
@-hg- Bob_002 The chat wheel messages are translated to the language your game is set in.
For example. You are playing with english as your set language and you use...say, "Nyx Assassin is missing". In my game which has spanish as the set language, I'd receive the message "Falta Nyx Assassin". So yes, using more chat wheel COULD be a solution...if people actually read the damn commands when you used them anyway.
Again Karake you expect that random ordinary pub players are similar to the pro, and near pro level people you encounter in your stacks and page 1, page 2 games. That is simply very far from reality.
Yes, when your entire team is outstandingly talented, extremely experienced dota players you can get by with different languages and basic commands from the chat wheel. But even you must concede that speaking the same language is superior. It is so superior that the most successful pro teams are far more likely to be people who all speak the same native language.
At the level of ordinary random pubs communication with the chat wheel is nearly impossible. That is why Valve considers it a PUNISHMENT to be muted. Because not being able to truly communicate is major disadvantage.
I get a dramatically different response from a pathetic "missing middle" and pings compared to saying in the microphone "Pudge going top with haste, get back or you will die!!!!". Pings and chat wheel voices are nearly always ignored. Clear decisive instructions and warnings I issue in the mic are only ignored by morons and people who do not know English.
I think the main reason that pings are oft ignored is because assholes like to randomly spam the shit with no real reason. They are spam pinging you 90 eleventy times, and you have absolutely 0 clue what they want/need from you. Whether it be a warning of a gank or wanting you to push a lane.
If I'm mid and I know my guy is going top then I will write ss and draw a line where he is going, most people seem to understand that. Speaking the same language is obviously beneficial but certainly not required. The issue is not with people that don't understand english, russian or whatever, the issue is with people that refuse to listen/communicate. That's not a language barrier issue. There are enough options in Dota 2 so that you should not need to write a single word, ever.
"Clear decisive instructions and warnings I issue in the mic are only ignored by morons and people who do not know English."
Yes, I know you can't comprehend actually having ordinary players on your team who look at the mini map MAYBE once per minute, or maybe once every few minutes.
You could draw all you want on the mini map in my typical solo que ranked game and it will do nothing. Yes, bad players do not communicate. Nevertheless they still listen to someone in their Native language saying "3 going top back up you are about to die". "Back up now, hide behind the tower!!" They will notice that because their brain automatically receives and processes that kind of communication no matter how much they suck at dota.
You are playing using a the language of elite dota players (the mini map). That language is even more alien to ordinary players than foreign languages. They will not even see it and certainly won't know what it means if they happen to see it by chance. Mostly likely they will think your nice mini-map lines are a failed attempt to draw a penis.
In the end it doesn't matter that you have no idea what ordinary pubs are like because you never have to deal with them. You probably have at least a dozen posts on dotabuff by now claiming that everyone in your games is always competent and similar in skill to you. How wonderful for you... but the reality for 7 million other people is nothing like that. Really its not even magical happy land for you. You get feeders sometimes as well. I've seen games where you had them... but for whatever reason you want to pretend its not true and tell yourself they just had a bad game. Your feeders are no where near as bad as the ones I get because your MMR is much higher... but you still get the occasional out of place player from Valve failing at matching.
I agree with relentless, maybe you guys are too highly rated or whatever but I'm talking about medium ratings here. Voice command is the only way to get people to coordinate. Not to mention one of the biggest issues I've been harping about is picks and lane setups. How do you tell a support to switch lanes with ping? You ping him and draw a line on the mini map? Maybe he gets it maybe he tells you to f off in russian. If you can explain in a common language hey I cannot successfully win this lane solo, please join me, chances are much better he's coming.
Plus there's so much spam on the screen at game time I don't even notice ss mid have the time.
MM does take into account people's picks cus they lose games but I also lose the game with them and thus still get matched with them. I'm trying to explain that my initial reactions used to be wtf how do I get matched with all these horrible players when reality is they aren't that bad, that just have a very poor level of overall dota knowledge and don't care enough about making good team picks. And that's where mmr fails.
And without fat americans you wouldn't have dota as a game to play.
In a game with elite players pinging at KotL may cause him to notice you are low on mana. With normal players however saying "GIFF me mana KotL" is much more likely to work.
When I say, "mech in 5 seconds"... everyone knows to group up.
When I say,"WL ult is on cd 10 more seconds, WAIT!!" people will actually wait and attack at the correct time.
Pings and chat commands cannot do these things. Voice chat makes it possible to elevate ordinary random dota players to actually have some coordination. Speaking the same language is critical. Foreign languages are crippling. Anyone with any military experience in a mixed language army, or who has studied it knows Babylon is a huge disadvantage.
"MM does take into account people's picks cus they lose games but I also lose the game with them and thus still get matched with them."
another mistake in your theory, unless you continually only get matched with the player this will not occur. MM deals with data over a long period of matches just not one (which is why you need lv 13 before you can enter ranked)
Check this out. Ok maybe i can accept that MM system can put the guys with similiar rating in one match. But how can poeple be in my skill bracket with such picks as in the example above. Picking order: Razor, Zeus, Slark, SF, WR (me). SF went mid, he said: "Chill, this is my autowin hero". He had the first blood, howevver he died then 3 times against invoker on mid. Razor offlane couldnt do much, he died some times as well. Zeus was the best, he was jungling. He was lvl 2 when we were lvl 4 on a dual lane. Then our lane. It was fairly balanced, until slark jumped on a full hp undying with mirana who just went to buy a boot at the sideshop. Obviously he died.
I understood, that my game knowledge is usually far above my teamates, and it has to be my play that sucks and why im stuck aat this tier. Pls give me some tips, based on my matches. Captains matches are with my friends usually, so there we tend to win 60% of our games, that could be even better, cause we lose games for silly playing...
@Tusy
every hero on your team needs farm. You can not complain about the problem when you are part of the problem. If you think picks are a problem play support(and dont give me that bullshit about WR being a support that bitch needs items). I can tell without even watching the match that you play way too passive and that leads to too many missed opportunities.
@Sampson
Why do you even bother to reply, if you dont wanna help. Keep your "advices" that help nothing. "I cant tell even without watching the match..." Bla bla. Youre way too egoist to help people in these forums. GTFO
This game was completely impossible to win. NO ONE could have won this game. Even people with 6k MMR would have been 100% certain to lose. Valve's most recent failures in matching have extended to new lows. Now that reports are not working correctly more and more throwers are getting into ranked games.
This game I had 2 throwers qued together on my team. They not only fed and fed the courier, they also tried to hide any of the teams items that were put on a courier. Weaver focused on feeding. While lion destroyed all the wards and fought to kill as many couriers and items as he could.
Tusy, Sampson has strong butthurt, I wouldnt bother talking to him long time.
Just played a very good game when we had invoker that got it as lastpick (with mid occupied ofc), went to farm ancients and didnt help us any shit. Just farming whole game. Gg Vulva, forced losses work good.
I actually could predict that after I won about 10 games in a row I will get same amount of losses.
This mm reminds me of a soviet plan economy, somehow.
PS Zenoth, if u're disagree with anyone here u just may leave, none wants u here.
PPS Relentless, "NO ONE could have won this game." is how my every second loss is got.
it would literally only take 1 fucking day of work to improve the fuckign quality by 100%
punish people for leaving, dodging, afking, intentionally losing
fucking separate stacks and solo players (the most stupid shit ever and im not complaining about being matched against but rather having stacks on your team)
balance the game or remove the broken heroes
The system is weird. There's a game where I had clearly the least impact on my team (KDA of 0.9) and got +24, then the other game I had the second highest kills and highest assists (KDA of 7.0) yet I only got awarded one point more.
If your allies skills improve too much, then you're guaranteed to drag down your team every game. Do you want to be that guy?
I usually find that if there's a problem child on my team, there's one on the other team as well, and I think that Valve is doing exceptionally well in trying to keep things even. Why is it that people don't rage about matchmaking when there is a feeder on the other team? It's because they don't put it into perspective, take the good with the bad, man. There will be poisonous players until the end of time. All you can really do is use that overpowered mute button with gusto.
Kiss-Shot Acerola-Orion, no, its likely there are 2 retards on my team usually against nerds that tryhard all the time. Go watch some of replays I posted here before talking your shit.
An interesting thing I spotted.
I watched over my 2 friends replays' and what I noticed: one of them gets a team that just better than enemies' team in like 60% of his games, other gets shitteam in 60% of his games (reminds of myself). They play on different level, but level means no shit here - as I'm talking that the whole team is worse and he is actually sometimes the best in his team. I dont really get what info this mm takes into considreation but its clear that for some retarded reason it decides "well, dat guy gonna get like 60% of free wins, and dat guy - 60% of free losses".
Wouldnt be surprised if it's just a pure random, like when you get doto on your account matchmaking randomly gives you a number of permitted wins and losses in order to keep global average winrate on 50%.
^^ that doesnt matter because dota 2 isnt balanced(+theres a lot to learn about each hero) game Approach like that could work in ie quake no probs
but in dota 2 One retard is going to take easy to play tanky hero or something with decent escape mech while tard on your team is going to pick something squishy without escape So in that scenario "i" "you" got crippled from start way more than good player/s on other team
^ The problem is that win/loss is forced on the basis of who picks the carry in your team mostly - 5k mmr player or 3k mmr player?
This is pure luck and the thing that mm intentionally sends worse kda guys than you in your team in order to maintain balance makes this shit totally unplayable (with my kda I gotta have at least 1 trash in the team almost always).
The real problem is the queue: basically speed over quality. The MMR discrepancy between Blue (generally the highest MMR) and Orange (almost always a feeder) is a way too high. Because of that, there's no way of playing with 4 men stack, for example
I have seen plenty of indications that the color-MMR rule might be true for some higher level solo games. But I have also seen counter indications. When you look at solo games of players with 6k MMR they do end up blue/pink a good deal more than a random distribution would produce... but not always.
It may be some secondary thing that is partially tied to MMR, as some have suggested (que time). Higher MMR players are more likely to have higher que times but not certain to have higher que times. So the color may be an unreliable indication of MMR in the game. Obviously that only applies to solo que and not party que... which is further confounded by the fact that solo que and party que are nearly always mixed together.
Also in extremely low MMR games the opposite would be true since extremely low MMRs would get longer que times also. Does the 1 MMR guy get blue/pink? Lets check. http://dotabuff.com/players/106782204 superthrower Nomad is currently at -224 games below 50% win and 1MMR.
---------------------------------------------
There is no doubt this guy is the lowest MMR in every game he plays and it appears that he was in solo que for the last 40 games.
Of course Valves dumb matching will still put him on teams with stacks anyway... but here is the data
So we see the same sort of pattern I found for 6k MMR players where they do tend to be in the (1 slot ie blue/pink) but are also found in other slots in plenty of games. It is more likely that blue/pink is the high MMR player for above average games and the low MMR player for below average games... BUT even in the extreme cases where you have 1 MMR or 6k MMR that color rule is still often wrong. For more typical MMRs 2k to 4k range, the colors really would mean nothing.
Also of note... don't 4 stack, sigh Really, how to do you think the superthrower got to be in 5 slot 8 times? Yes, Valve screwing 4 stacks over with his addition to their team... just don't do it. The 5th player with either be a guy like the superthrower or a guy who is way above your MMR and will play solo the whole time ignoring you and trying to do it all himself while trash talking you since he knows you are bad compared to him.
A great example of a game that Relentless told us about.
Undying didnt even attempt to do anything whole game, just farming and dying. If he had done the same shit while trying to gank that would have made difference. But no, it shows we didnt have a chance from the very beginning.
enemy brood => decides this ranked game is a good time to try his first game of broodmother
enemy pudge => 33% win pudge, 1.52 KDA on 36 games
Enemy wisp => 0-12 win/loss for wisp, goes dagon wisp
I farm and am mostly bored, easy win, barely had to pay attention. But maybe this one is on the players choice of heroes, not Valve. 3 players pick heroes they suck at... well Valve can't make them try to win. I would just think in ranked trying to win would be bit more common, but I guess not.
Still I am currently at +78 games over 50%, none of the others are past +10 wins with most below 50% wins. I guess Valve put me in to balance someone's stack. Solo que less than 2 min for this one. Apparently I am balancing one of the anonymous players.
All 4 on my team cooperated right away, wards courier, rotations to towers and for ganks all happened without me doing anything. Meanwhile the enemy team immediately fell apart and fed on all lanes. Probably wisp is intentionally losing the game, but still... it did not feel like a fair game. It might have been possible to lose by giving a Divine Rapier to LC or maybe feeding 20 kills on purpose... but if I afked at the start we still would most likely have won the game.
Last night I played 5 solo games on Russia server, lost 4 of them. Here are the results:
- 1 game - stack of 4 that were not speaking english
- 1 game - stack of 4 that were speaking english and were actually communicating
- 3 games with random solos / stacks of 2 - people were speaking english
- 0 games where ANYONE flamed his team mates.
In this game I had to be against triple lane with NO support. Still managed to get my farm, but 3 idiots cant farm even with NO enemies against them on lanes.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/472031803 que time for this match was over 6 minutes: proving again that Valve lowers their quality of matches into the toilet on long que times.
Another example of a match that was impossible to win... In this game solo que, I was placed with 4 Russians, despite selecting English only. All 4 Russians solo qued. Did they all select English only? They all used Russian throughout the game. All 4 of them were very very bad at their heores compared to what I am used to seeing (probably average MMR) and the necrophos decided to intentionally throw the game besides doing plenty of intentional feeds not only of his hero but also couriers he got to feed more gold to the enemy. Two of them tried to solo mid and fought over it.
I really had a lot of fun this game trying to keep these guys alive despite their god-aweful positioning and frequent afks. It was great game to practice dazzle in a difficult circumstance. But again I could not have won this game with any hero... nor could most players even 1000 MMR higher than me.
Enemy pudge and mirrana could only hit still targets... but there were plenty of heroes standing still for them hit. So they got great scores and probably think they were amazing.
The biggest problem with the matching for this game was the language "preference". How much work would it really take to just have anyone who selected only one language NEVER be qued with anyone who selected any other language? How much work would it take to at least give people the choice to BAN other languages... "Click Here no foreign languages". I'm sure some Russians are such idiots that they select English only when they can only use Russian... but there is no way its as many as it seems from matching... they must be selecting English and Russian and still getting matched to me.
In other news I finally lose another game to jungle axe... yes, matching was so bad jungle axe won. Jungle axe now 7 wins 72 losses in games I have seen. Do not jungle with axe.
Yes languages is a gigantic problem. I play only on US servers so I don't usually get russians but I get a ton of south americans who clearly don't comprehend english. I get why they queue, the waits are probably better, possibly better ping, but it's so stupid.
And I have yet more examples of why mmr is so terrible because it can't account for being a complete retard when making picks. I still maintain that 80% of more of games are lost because of bad picks, not because the other team was necessarily better. In matching raw mechanical skill (like ability to last hit, map awareness) I feel the matchmaking is pretty good. No one usually just straight up out plays the other team, but you can be equal in skill and lose if other lane has more disables early or lose if your team doesn't know how to push against carry heavy teams etc.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471887501
In this match first guy randoms batrider. Not a very strong hero as of late, but whatever, if he wants to random the first pick fine. Rest of team takes forever to pick so I go wraith king cus I like him a lot and it's 2nd pick. Next two picks are band a jugger. Ok this might work out if last pick is another lane support or mid so bat can lane support but last pick is a NP who goes "I jungle ok". We are so f'd. Juggernaught won't shutup about going safe lane so I offlane on wraith king. Bane apparently doesn't speak english so he won't come bottom. I hang back as best I can but am vs pudge and vengeful, guys with long range cc. Needless to say we end up losing badly. Np was pretty terrible so I'm not sure we'd have won even if he went lane but the pick was just asinine and gave us no chance to win.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471913686
Next match was almost a complete reverse of what happened. First pick is chaos knight. I double up on melee carrys with stuns and go wraith king again, maybe not the smoothest move but again I pick early cus I want to play a carry I enjoy. I would never pick like that with 4th or 5th picks. Next guy picks medusa which is borderline indefensible, now we'll be force to lane two carries together and still have no mid. Fortunately the next guy picks an amazing support CM who's mana regen greatly helps wraith king, and last guy mids venge, which I don't see too often but it works ok.
Other team team is a whole different story. I didn't watch their pick order that closely but they told me bounty hunter picked last and they end up with bounty hunter and sven bottom vs me on wraith king and cm. We kill them a lot. They might have been able to salvage their picks if they had sent bounty off with timber and put disruptor bottom with sven, or even swapped bounty and timber. As it was all we had to do was drop a sentry totem and stun bounty whenever he tried to gank cm or stun sven after he hammered.
I don't know how you fix these issues with mmr but people need to stop being retards and making retarded picks.
MM takes into account people making retarded picks
if picks influence the outcome of the match and MM is increased or decreased based on the outcome of a match then the person making bad picks often will end up with a low MM. They will drop to a point where their skill level can overcome their poor decision making choices.
People need to stop using one match to say 'this does not work because I had a bad game'
It's quite interesting that people still think you have to speak the same language as your team to win at Dota. Try using any of the helpful tools Valve has implemented so far, like cross ping, drawing and the chat wheel.
How is the chat wheel going to help? I mean, I suppose you could say that they should understand at least a few sentences, but it also seems to go against the crux of your argument.
You don't have to speak the same language, but it certainly helps in a lot of instances. Especially those that require a bit more nuance beyond a ping.
it is easier to ignore russians than to deal with the fat fucking americans who sound like they can barely breath when they talk and sitting on the computer is hard labor for them
so in the end u are from rus land samson
@-hg- Bob_002 The chat wheel messages are translated to the language your game is set in.
For example. You are playing with english as your set language and you use...say, "Nyx Assassin is missing". In my game which has spanish as the set language, I'd receive the message "Falta Nyx Assassin". So yes, using more chat wheel COULD be a solution...if people actually read the damn commands when you used them anyway.
Chalk that up to news to me. I appreciate the insight. That is going to be really helpful then.
*my bad* Gracias por la informacion.
Again Karake you expect that random ordinary pub players are similar to the pro, and near pro level people you encounter in your stacks and page 1, page 2 games. That is simply very far from reality.
Yes, when your entire team is outstandingly talented, extremely experienced dota players you can get by with different languages and basic commands from the chat wheel. But even you must concede that speaking the same language is superior. It is so superior that the most successful pro teams are far more likely to be people who all speak the same native language.
At the level of ordinary random pubs communication with the chat wheel is nearly impossible. That is why Valve considers it a PUNISHMENT to be muted. Because not being able to truly communicate is major disadvantage.
I get a dramatically different response from a pathetic "missing middle" and pings compared to saying in the microphone "Pudge going top with haste, get back or you will die!!!!". Pings and chat wheel voices are nearly always ignored. Clear decisive instructions and warnings I issue in the mic are only ignored by morons and people who do not know English.
I think the main reason that pings are oft ignored is because assholes like to randomly spam the shit with no real reason. They are spam pinging you 90 eleventy times, and you have absolutely 0 clue what they want/need from you. Whether it be a warning of a gank or wanting you to push a lane.
If I'm mid and I know my guy is going top then I will write ss and draw a line where he is going, most people seem to understand that. Speaking the same language is obviously beneficial but certainly not required. The issue is not with people that don't understand english, russian or whatever, the issue is with people that refuse to listen/communicate. That's not a language barrier issue. There are enough options in Dota 2 so that you should not need to write a single word, ever.
"Clear decisive instructions and warnings I issue in the mic are only ignored by morons and people who do not know English."
I really doubt that..
Yes, I know you can't comprehend actually having ordinary players on your team who look at the mini map MAYBE once per minute, or maybe once every few minutes.
You could draw all you want on the mini map in my typical solo que ranked game and it will do nothing. Yes, bad players do not communicate. Nevertheless they still listen to someone in their Native language saying "3 going top back up you are about to die". "Back up now, hide behind the tower!!" They will notice that because their brain automatically receives and processes that kind of communication no matter how much they suck at dota.
You are playing using a the language of elite dota players (the mini map). That language is even more alien to ordinary players than foreign languages. They will not even see it and certainly won't know what it means if they happen to see it by chance. Mostly likely they will think your nice mini-map lines are a failed attempt to draw a penis.
In the end it doesn't matter that you have no idea what ordinary pubs are like because you never have to deal with them. You probably have at least a dozen posts on dotabuff by now claiming that everyone in your games is always competent and similar in skill to you. How wonderful for you... but the reality for 7 million other people is nothing like that. Really its not even magical happy land for you. You get feeders sometimes as well. I've seen games where you had them... but for whatever reason you want to pretend its not true and tell yourself they just had a bad game. Your feeders are no where near as bad as the ones I get because your MMR is much higher... but you still get the occasional out of place player from Valve failing at matching.
I agree with relentless, maybe you guys are too highly rated or whatever but I'm talking about medium ratings here. Voice command is the only way to get people to coordinate. Not to mention one of the biggest issues I've been harping about is picks and lane setups. How do you tell a support to switch lanes with ping? You ping him and draw a line on the mini map? Maybe he gets it maybe he tells you to f off in russian. If you can explain in a common language hey I cannot successfully win this lane solo, please join me, chances are much better he's coming.
Plus there's so much spam on the screen at game time I don't even notice ss mid have the time.
MM does take into account people's picks cus they lose games but I also lose the game with them and thus still get matched with them. I'm trying to explain that my initial reactions used to be wtf how do I get matched with all these horrible players when reality is they aren't that bad, that just have a very poor level of overall dota knowledge and don't care enough about making good team picks. And that's where mmr fails.
And without fat americans you wouldn't have dota as a game to play.
In a game with elite players pinging at KotL may cause him to notice you are low on mana. With normal players however saying "GIFF me mana KotL" is much more likely to work.
When I say, "mech in 5 seconds"... everyone knows to group up.
When I say,"WL ult is on cd 10 more seconds, WAIT!!" people will actually wait and attack at the correct time.
Pings and chat commands cannot do these things. Voice chat makes it possible to elevate ordinary random dota players to actually have some coordination. Speaking the same language is critical. Foreign languages are crippling. Anyone with any military experience in a mixed language army, or who has studied it knows Babylon is a huge disadvantage.
"MM does take into account people's picks cus they lose games but I also lose the game with them and thus still get matched with them."
another mistake in your theory, unless you continually only get matched with the player this will not occur. MM deals with data over a long period of matches just not one (which is why you need lv 13 before you can enter ranked)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/473015689
Check this out. Ok maybe i can accept that MM system can put the guys with similiar rating in one match. But how can poeple be in my skill bracket with such picks as in the example above. Picking order: Razor, Zeus, Slark, SF, WR (me). SF went mid, he said: "Chill, this is my autowin hero". He had the first blood, howevver he died then 3 times against invoker on mid. Razor offlane couldnt do much, he died some times as well. Zeus was the best, he was jungling. He was lvl 2 when we were lvl 4 on a dual lane. Then our lane. It was fairly balanced, until slark jumped on a full hp undying with mirana who just went to buy a boot at the sideshop. Obviously he died.
I understood, that my game knowledge is usually far above my teamates, and it has to be my play that sucks and why im stuck aat this tier. Pls give me some tips, based on my matches. Captains matches are with my friends usually, so there we tend to win 60% of our games, that could be even better, cause we lose games for silly playing...
@Tusy
every hero on your team needs farm. You can not complain about the problem when you are part of the problem. If you think picks are a problem play support(and dont give me that bullshit about WR being a support that bitch needs items). I can tell without even watching the match that you play way too passive and that leads to too many missed opportunities.
@Sampson
Why do you even bother to reply, if you dont wanna help. Keep your "advices" that help nothing. "I cant tell even without watching the match..." Bla bla. Youre way too egoist to help people in these forums. GTFO
http://dotabuff.com/matches/474506240
This game was completely impossible to win. NO ONE could have won this game. Even people with 6k MMR would have been 100% certain to lose. Valve's most recent failures in matching have extended to new lows. Now that reports are not working correctly more and more throwers are getting into ranked games.
This game I had 2 throwers qued together on my team. They not only fed and fed the courier, they also tried to hide any of the teams items that were put on a courier. Weaver focused on feeding. While lion destroyed all the wards and fought to kill as many couriers and items as he could.
Tusy, Sampson has strong butthurt, I wouldnt bother talking to him long time.
Just played a very good game when we had invoker that got it as lastpick (with mid occupied ofc), went to farm ancients and didnt help us any shit. Just farming whole game. Gg Vulva, forced losses work good.
I actually could predict that after I won about 10 games in a row I will get same amount of losses.
This mm reminds me of a soviet plan economy, somehow.
PS Zenoth, if u're disagree with anyone here u just may leave, none wants u here.
PPS Relentless, "NO ONE could have won this game." is how my every second loss is got.
if your only complaint is that valve is forcing loses on you and valve knows they are no forcing losses on you then do not expect anything to change
win: you carried
lose: teammates suck dick
Sampson, but actually they are forcing losses on me, how you said.
And really, gtfo, u was already told.
it would literally only take 1 fucking day of work to improve the fuckign quality by 100%
punish people for leaving, dodging, afking, intentionally losing
fucking separate stacks and solo players (the most stupid shit ever and im not complaining about being matched against but rather having stacks on your team)
balance the game or remove the broken heroes
The system is weird. There's a game where I had clearly the least impact on my team (KDA of 0.9) and got +24, then the other game I had the second highest kills and highest assists (KDA of 7.0) yet I only got awarded one point more.
kda does not matter as long as u win
@Sampson
Sadly in pubs kda>winning
hes talking about mmr
If your allies skills improve too much, then you're guaranteed to drag down your team every game. Do you want to be that guy?
I usually find that if there's a problem child on my team, there's one on the other team as well, and I think that Valve is doing exceptionally well in trying to keep things even. Why is it that people don't rage about matchmaking when there is a feeder on the other team? It's because they don't put it into perspective, take the good with the bad, man. There will be poisonous players until the end of time. All you can really do is use that overpowered mute button with gusto.
they arent doing anything
they are matching you based on your MMR
its as likely to have 2 retards on your team as it is to have 1 in each team
Kiss-Shot Acerola-Orion, no, its likely there are 2 retards on my team usually against nerds that tryhard all the time. Go watch some of replays I posted here before talking your shit.
An interesting thing I spotted.
I watched over my 2 friends replays' and what I noticed: one of them gets a team that just better than enemies' team in like 60% of his games, other gets shitteam in 60% of his games (reminds of myself). They play on different level, but level means no shit here - as I'm talking that the whole team is worse and he is actually sometimes the best in his team. I dont really get what info this mm takes into considreation but its clear that for some retarded reason it decides "well, dat guy gonna get like 60% of free wins, and dat guy - 60% of free losses".
Wouldnt be surprised if it's just a pure random, like when you get doto on your account matchmaking randomly gives you a number of permitted wins and losses in order to keep global average winrate on 50%.
Vulva amuses me, really.
^^ that doesnt matter because dota 2 isnt balanced(+theres a lot to learn about each hero) game Approach like that could work in ie quake no probs
but in dota 2 One retard is going to take easy to play tanky hero or something with decent escape mech while tard on your team is going to pick something squishy without escape So in that scenario "i" "you" got crippled from start way more than good player/s on other team
^ The problem is that win/loss is forced on the basis of who picks the carry in your team mostly - 5k mmr player or 3k mmr player?
This is pure luck and the thing that mm intentionally sends worse kda guys than you in your team in order to maintain balance makes this shit totally unplayable (with my kda I gotta have at least 1 trash in the team almost always).
carries do not carry the team.
^ Go to page 5, find replay with am that Relentless discussed, then think again.
The real problem is the queue: basically speed over quality. The MMR discrepancy between Blue (generally the highest MMR) and Orange (almost always a feeder) is a way too high. Because of that, there's no way of playing with 4 men stack, for example
I mean, it's not interesting for valve making good games, because they require a long queue (that depends on region).
Long queue: "ded game"
Short queue: "omg no way playing this shit, why people are so stupid?" <- Not exactly valve's fault
whoever thought it was a good idea to spread this nonsese of blue player = top MM, orange player = lowest MM needs to be shot in the face
In party queue it's not, in fact, but in soloq it is (srsly that's almost a rule if you have 4700+)
I have seen plenty of indications that the color-MMR rule might be true for some higher level solo games. But I have also seen counter indications. When you look at solo games of players with 6k MMR they do end up blue/pink a good deal more than a random distribution would produce... but not always.
It may be some secondary thing that is partially tied to MMR, as some have suggested (que time). Higher MMR players are more likely to have higher que times but not certain to have higher que times. So the color may be an unreliable indication of MMR in the game. Obviously that only applies to solo que and not party que... which is further confounded by the fact that solo que and party que are nearly always mixed together.
Also in extremely low MMR games the opposite would be true since extremely low MMRs would get longer que times also. Does the 1 MMR guy get blue/pink? Lets check. http://dotabuff.com/players/106782204 superthrower Nomad is currently at -224 games below 50% win and 1MMR.
---------------------------------------------
There is no doubt this guy is the lowest MMR in every game he plays and it appears that he was in solo que for the last 40 games.
Of course Valves dumb matching will still put him on teams with stacks anyway... but here is the data
(1 slot) 16
(2 slot) 11
(3 slot) 2
(4 slot) 3
(5 slot) 8
So we see the same sort of pattern I found for 6k MMR players where they do tend to be in the (1 slot ie blue/pink) but are also found in other slots in plenty of games. It is more likely that blue/pink is the high MMR player for above average games and the low MMR player for below average games... BUT even in the extreme cases where you have 1 MMR or 6k MMR that color rule is still often wrong. For more typical MMRs 2k to 4k range, the colors really would mean nothing.
Also of note... don't 4 stack, sigh Really, how to do you think the superthrower got to be in 5 slot 8 times? Yes, Valve screwing 4 stacks over with his addition to their team... just don't do it. The 5th player with either be a guy like the superthrower or a guy who is way above your MMR and will play solo the whole time ignoring you and trying to do it all himself while trash talking you since he knows you are bad compared to him.
I wouldnt mind waiting 10-15 minutes in order to get a good game. Kiddos, however, dont like to wait.
I wanna say that imo 4 stacks aint that bad, worse is that when you play solo you can see from 1 min when its a forced loss for you sometimes.
Hey lads, wanna some free loss? Gaben has it always.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/479574588
Idiotic picks, idiot goes mid, 2 useless supports and magnus that doesnt know how to skewer -> to us.
Ggwp.
And next game is same 20 min free loss.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/479631668
3k mmr bh, idiot carry, potm with 0 wards throughout 20+ min.
Trash is trash.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/480069532
A great example of a game that Relentless told us about.
Undying didnt even attempt to do anything whole game, just farming and dying. If he had done the same shit while trying to gank that would have made difference. But no, it shows we didnt have a chance from the very beginning.
Mhm.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/480307686 game was nearly impossible to lose
enemy brood => decides this ranked game is a good time to try his first game of broodmother
enemy pudge => 33% win pudge, 1.52 KDA on 36 games
Enemy wisp => 0-12 win/loss for wisp, goes dagon wisp
I farm and am mostly bored, easy win, barely had to pay attention. But maybe this one is on the players choice of heroes, not Valve. 3 players pick heroes they suck at... well Valve can't make them try to win. I would just think in ranked trying to win would be bit more common, but I guess not.
Still I am currently at +78 games over 50%, none of the others are past +10 wins with most below 50% wins. I guess Valve put me in to balance someone's stack. Solo que less than 2 min for this one. Apparently I am balancing one of the anonymous players.
All 4 on my team cooperated right away, wards courier, rotations to towers and for ganks all happened without me doing anything. Meanwhile the enemy team immediately fell apart and fed on all lanes. Probably wisp is intentionally losing the game, but still... it did not feel like a fair game. It might have been possible to lose by giving a Divine Rapier to LC or maybe feeding 20 kills on purpose... but if I afked at the start we still would most likely have won the game.
Last night I played 5 solo games on Russia server, lost 4 of them. Here are the results:
- 1 game - stack of 4 that were not speaking english
- 1 game - stack of 4 that were speaking english and were actually communicating
- 3 games with random solos / stacks of 2 - people were speaking english
- 0 games where ANYONE flamed his team mates.
I'm impressed!
http://dotabuff.com/matches/480758059
In this game I had to be against triple lane with NO support. Still managed to get my farm, but 3 idiots cant farm even with NO enemies against them on lanes.
Ggwp, obvious free loss.
Next game - lich buys boots and goes dual lane (while we said about triple top).
I dont really get why Gaben doesnt want any good players to participate in this game.
^You realize that was not a game for AM, right?