ur garbage who cant play this game for shit once u stopped stacking can't win games anymore ? boohoohoo so sad l2p and then qq here
They were shit, you say?
How about this guy: http://dotabuff.com/players/49619664
Who destroys our own wards at start, then keeps moving the courier to the enemy territory. For no reason.
And he did this in several games.
Valkiss, the thing u learned how to play 3 heroes and pick them only in ap doesnt mean neither that u're good or that mm works.
But whatever, u're too bad to get this.
Szotyi3, feel sorry. I dont often meet such idiots, but that doesnt matter as my teammates are just baddies.
Sampson, am I seem the worst cuz I always have postive score or cuz I roam as support or cuz I do shit you dont even know how to do?
Well for someone that blames matchmaking/valve while having 131cs at 31 minutes as Anti-mage why don't you try to get better at dota instead of bitching about matchmaking?
same 3 heroes ? :D prettysure in my last 2 days of playing i played atleast 15 different heroes and won majority of those games also
Something does seem wrong im pretty low mmr but iv'e never had a 20 match win streak yet here i am. That said op don't think you can judge someone off one match with them everyone can have a bad game where nothing seems to go right.
^
Holy shit, you could buy a lottery with that solo winning streak I'm serious ! It's so rare.
May be due to the fact i've been playing a lot of enigma and my rank is so poor they don't have supports much or just good fortune who knows. Black hole seems to dominate my rank and i normally don't even need a bkb. But even when i play shit my side wins so im betting on the good fortune.
Black Lion, u kidding me? It's not people failing, its idiots being sent in the team where 1 guy has to carry them.
Valkiss, no need in your excuses. Gtfo from the thread, arleady told u that.
^ Nah, its Valve broken mm that sends noobs into my games.
But I dont gonna argue with u, heh be delusional.
u gtfo from thread faggot ur so bad u can't even win vs other trashes like u therefore ur here making threads how bad u are and how u need help to l2p
I am playing with my brother and his friends in the potato bracket and how the fuck do you lose?
Who cost you this game? It couldn't possibly be the Dagon Ogre Magi
http://dotabuff.com/matches/447016851
What about this one?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/443601886
You must be so godly at dota.
Valkiss, sorry I didnt read ur kiddish post.
Wink, nah, it wasnt me who lost those games. Dl a replay or keep cooking in ur ignorance.
Am I the only one who is amazed that people seem to think it's completely logical to say "I get matched with bad players, therefor MMR is broken" Valve and IceFrog have years of experience in dealing with game design and the algorithms nessessary to create a MM system. Has it never occurred to any of you whiners that maybe a more logical approach would be "I get matched with bad players, therefor I am a bad player." Also it's hilarious that all of you are so arrogant that you don't even try to hide the fact that you are saying "I am DotA god. Better than all players. I get 9000000000 MMR and win TI4 if not for noobs lelelelelelele ahuahueahueahue."
this isnt hon or lol i am sorry + it was proven that normal mm used to match people within 1k rating difference (it was posted by fletcher in one of games he brokedown in response to mid posted by random user) and ranked mm most likely isnt much different since they hid rating # at least i noticed huge drop in game quality since then
Matching does match huge differences in MMR quite regularly. The most recent example given on the blog post where valve introduced ranked matches confirmed again that they consider a 1k range a "good" match... bad ones maybe 2k?
I had heard the same bullshit explanations for this over an over but saying that someone has stacked a large MMR range forcing the match is completely irrelevant. Solo que is exactly the same que as party que. It is now revealed by valve themselves if it was not obvious enough already.
The only reason the range for MMR for a match is so huge is because Valve prioritizes low que time over all other factors. And honestly for most dota players this is probably the right choice for valve to make. But as they also said in the same blog post they do NOT care about having some bad matches. They ONLY care about the aggregate performance of their algorithm getting the most ppl close to 50% win as possible.
Valve does not even have the objective of making quality matches. They are not attempting to do it If you want a quality match you must arrange it yourself. You do this by 5 stacking or by canceling the search while the range is small and waiting longer overall.
if you have 5k+ rating dont bother playing ranked.
im actually serious, why risk losing ur rating when theres no ladder or highscore?
Relentless, no, you just misinterpreted the blog post. The 3046 player and 2100 player are in the same party.
Again, you make the same mistake everyone defending Valve's matching does. Being on the same party is completely irrelevant. Solo ques go against parties nearly every game. Being placed on the team with the party that qued with the huge MMR difference or against it. Either way its an aggravating reality.
You know a year ago when I started paying attention to dotabuff. "lie to me again fagt" was making the same complaint and for the longest time I did not believe that Valve would prioritize low que time over quality. I tried to rationalize every example that provided more and more evidence that they really were making crap matches. But eventually the evidence mounted up and it became to obvious too ignore.
Valve does not even attempt to get quality matches. They do not believe it is worthwhile to even measure or check for them.
"The matchmaker seldom achieves all of those goals "
"Measuring success in matchmaking is difficult"
"It’s not critical if the metric misidentifies some edge cases (a game that it measures as close was actually a blowout), since we are typically are only concerned with the aggregate response after making a change."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
They do not believe in trying to eliminate errors. They want only their large number aggregate measures to be ok.
bitch pls solo qued vs 4 ppls stack + guy who randomed lc
http://dotabuff.com/matches/450533123
and not bitching about it if u know how to play u will win atleast half of ur games (forced 50%)
yes its annoying when u get matched vs stacks but if u don't like that just stack urself rest of matchmaking works just fine in my games its always ppls who has 1k++++ games each in both teams or ppls who has winrates of 50-70%+
so if i got 4k mmr im bad player and if someone had 5k is good player ? :D
bitch pls in my f list theres so many noobs who has way above 5k and they are terrible players put them in a competitive game they won't know what to do cuz they are only good for pubs and even in those pubs they need stacks to win games
after mmr was released i droped quite alot against stacks and was bellow 5k at one point did that made me any worse player than i am ? ofc not im almost back into 6k now and keep winning most of my games while playing solo all the time
In that case it is a necessary evil. You can't restrict people from queueing with people of other skill levels. That would be stupid.. Anyway I disagree with you. I have played quite a bit and I have not really experienced any terrible matchings so far. It feels like both teams have had a good chance in almost every game (unless the picks were awful for one team but that is another issue..).
You cant become me just by ignoring punctuation and proper english Vaikiss nice try 6/10
Well karake you are a pro player and as I have said before: You really don't have the same experience in pub dota as nearly everyone. But that's not even so pertinent to the current question...
The problem is not that all matches are lopsided stomps. The problem is that some are. And its not a tiny tiny faction. It's something that comes up for most people on a fairly regular basis. Maybe 1 game in 15 or 1 game in 20 is really completely impossible to win before picks because the match was so uneven. For the solo ranked games this seems to have increased to maybe 1 game in 5. I'm sure that is just a consequence of the smaller pool of players available for the matching algorithm in ranked games. As Valve reminds us from time to time if everyone in the world was playing dota these problems would disappear in the ocean of large numbers. And its true, the systematic flaws they tolerate do scale up and down with the size of the pool of players. So as dota grows, eventually they will diminish.
Aggregate data will not show the problem because these things will even out. People get to be on the Unfairly wining side just as much as the unfairly losing side. And we all tend to focus on the ones we lost... but as example.
Valve says this!!! to try to claim that ppl don't know when their matches were crap.
"Players’ appraisals of matchmaking quality are highly correlated with their recent win rate."
This is such a stupid non-sequiter. Of course they will complain when they were on the losing side of bad matches rather then the winning side. That has no bearing on the fact that the matches were bad.
My recent games...
http://dotabuff.com/matches/448078670 This game I won so easily I was almost asleep. An extremely lopsided game. I played like crap and was 6-0-20 on a solo mid Viper before diving into the fountain out of boredom.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/448769868 This game I played quite badly on LS and my axe was trying to lose the game by feeding intentionally for the first 10 min straight... he was even constantly talking in chat about how he was going to feed. We still won anyway because our players were all way way higher skill.
These were both solo que games for me, but both teams had parties.
People complain about the games where matching was extremely against them. Someone was on the other team every time, but who complains about that?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/447888904 This game I played an excellent game of CM, but my team was totally out matched. I played far far better this game on CM than I did in the Viper or the LS game. But I lost points for the CM game and gained points on the bad Viper and LS games. The match decided who would win before picks.
_________________________________________________
Vaikiss points out another real problem for matching: the more basic problem, the fact that MMR really does not reflect skill nearly to the extent that it should for the system to work well. In general, yes higher MMR is going to be a better player. But there are plenty of exceptions and ppl do move their MMR around a lot by their recent performance. Win ten games in a row and you are up 300 to 500 points, lose ten in a row and you are down as much.
But that's something that impacts very few games for most players. Its really just an excuse Valve can use to not bother to fix their problems and wave the "aggregate data" flag while pretending they are not making bad matches. Anyway its all about the low que times. And it is possible to manipulate the que to avoid large ranges... its just annoying that you have to do it manually when it would be so simple to make the system give you a choice to select to limit the search range as an option instead. They are so lazy in their programming.
TLDR: Don't let anyone tell you that "forced loss" games don't exist. But remember just as many are "forced win". If you want smaller MMR range games, cancel searches at 1 min que time. Cancelling the que does not cause you to win games. It does mean that you are not stuck with people far above or below you in MMR. If you want to control who is on your team you have to stack to do it.
punctuation and proper english doesn't stack with my dyslexia and ADHD so nty brah
i missed those walls filled with dedication also #fuck adhd
Relentless: The thing is, potato-tier players do care more about the games when they were on the winning side and talk for months about their 40-2-12 stomp, and just dont care about their bad games for more than the duration of the game. Before I found Dotabuff, I only encountered those players. Even games are good but to get those big numbers sometimes, you have to be on the losing side sometimes. Why would valve care about that 1%, if the other 90%+ wants something else? They want fast queue and the chance to stomp.
Top 1% wanted numbers and got it, maybe they will add other features like the option to not get matched with higher than x rating difference, so when the matchmaker reaches that range, it will continoue searching for a longer time instead of changing the range. They want players to be able to play with each other, lot more people would quit the game if they couldnt queue with their friends just couse there is 2000 MMR difference then how many does couse of no proper ladder.
And it is a free to play game, they get their money from hats, why wouldnt they care about their hats? WoW had a lot better system for rankings or at least it felt like that... But everyone payed for it, not for the hats, for the game quality. I dont get why anyone wants more from a f2p game, its already enough good, they gave diretide, they gave numbers, they do everything the community wants with time, but obviously hats have priority.
Yes you are right about everything you said. What Valve is doing with the matching is still vastly better than dota 1 and has been getting better as more and more ppl play dota 2.
I hope they will eventually add the option for a smaller search range. I know they have considered it, talked about it... my speculation is that they just don't think the player base is large enough for it to get que times low enough that most ppl would be happy. If a lot of players did choose to wait longer in their own search criteria it would lead to longer que times for everyone. I guess they are just not willing to sacrifice/risk that yet.
They must feel some degree of increased confidence since they were willing to split MMR 5 ways now and actually split the ques 3 ways (ranked, team, and normal).
Despite the fact that there is not really a business case for improving the matching I still object to the errors that do exist in it. And the fact is for all the complaining I am still using the solo ranked matches, just to try them out.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/451477185
This last game was completely impossible for me to win, a total failure of matching. I was placed on a team with a stack of 4 Brazilians against a 5 stack. The Brazilians shouted in Portuguesse the whole match and could not speak English at all despite my selecting "English" as my only language. I set up my Legion Commander with an ideal start giving him a FB kill and two more in the lane and total free farm. But he went on to feed like mad anyway. Nothing I could do even with Lich could win this game.
But despite all that I really enjoyed the game mostly. I got to play one of my favorite heroes in a challenging situation. What more could I want from solo que?
relentless give up on supports if u want better ranking. supporting is like fuel in cars, engine cannt run without it, but fuel cannt do much to upgrade V2 engine performance. engiines are carry and mid ofc
Relentless, that's all well and good but what do you do when players around the same rating as you play like trash or make beyond retarded picks? Soooo many AP ranked games are lost during the pick phase cus x-player didn't want to play support yet picked last or randomed and wouldn't repick or picked a second jungle pusher when we had one. Players are paying next to zero attention to lane setup. The best games I've had were when I did captain's draft and made the picks myself, never lost one of those yet, I lose all pick like 80% of the time. It's not range in mmr, it's range in basic knowledge of dota2 mechanics that amazes me.
They also need to bring back the non party queue option because 3 and 5 man stacks constantly pick super aggressive teams which normal players aren't prepared to adapt to. A party is 10x more likely to pull off a gank early and snowball from there and it's really not fair when you're queuing solo.
MMR cannot account for selfish assholes. Some may deserve their rating when playing a carry in a safe lane, but adamantly refuse to pick anything else when a carry is already taken. They then proceed to feed in environments they are not used to and come off as a 2000 mmr noob. This applies to all levels of competency - be it at 1k mmr or 5k mmr, you will always have assholes who only play what they feel like playing and not what the team needs. As long as there are assholes like these you will have people complaining about MM.
matchmakings not broken from what ive noticed. the games ive played in on this account have since like the first one or two been pretty balanced. its pretty obvious why players who play more aggressively win a lot more games...the ultrapassive styles don't work when pub games are usually decided in the first 10-15 minutes. and this is usually why games become stomps, and like the above said you can't account for people playing different heroes all that well...you get two players who are good at hard carries and have 5k mmr but since that's all they really can do the team ends up with a void and an antimage on the same team and proceeds to get stomped...thats not something MMR can deal with because if a player is super good at say playing mid he's probably just as good at playing the other roles whereas someone who only plays carries doesn't have the skillset needed to play other roles (even though a large part of the game is the same in all roles).
anyway yeah just play aggressive roles without the afk farming and you'll win a lot more games.
I can't whine about ranked games anymore really.Started to question myself where is the thing that i'm doing wrong.Buying wards or giving proper ss or pinging enemies place or pinging my teammates to go back etc.And im surprised about rumors that pink or blue is the best player in team in solo mm.I was in this slots cuz i think valve tries to give me wins with lower enemies or teammates when im on lose streak.Still not helping at all,my rating has to drop if im not mid player which has very high impact (and i dont play mid at all).Rate 4230 fml :/
MM is fine
but sometimes there is a guy having a really bad day:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/451755499
):
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Hi lads.
So actually when idiots from Vulveh added ranked it turned out to be even worse, and I couldnt imagine worse thing than normal.
So lets see.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/449715834
Idiot fails mid as ta, lina cant aim any stun possible and doesnt have brain. ggwp Vulva.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/448686153
Lina and lion "need farm" and dont know ganks can actually be made in this game. ggwp trash
http://dotabuff.com/matches/447091615
2-11 idiot goes mid and says he won it, np. Bane doesnt know shit about ganking and says he did his job well.
I dont really know if Valve actually added ranked mm or just made mmr visible cuz nothing has changed since 2011.