my last game ... russian furion buying 6 bracers then selling them and buying force + blink so he can jump around the map ... from 30 minutes of the game 25 of them he sit on radiant side cliff ...
and i dont want to comment last pick warlock support with stout shield + phase boots (ofc he bought 0 dewards / wards whole game)
ofc .. they blamed me at the end of the game ... bcz mid always gets blame for "fail" :)
I do take farm if carry isn't there, and only then. I'm working on pulling and getting into that rhythm, but I need to keep working on that. Though you did just give me a couple more ideas.
@zenoth
Obviously if someone can't last hit, then they just can't last hit and it doesn't matter which carry they pick, but I've seen scrubs destroy much better players in lanes cus the scrubs had a good combo like bristle CM or some other junk the better players just didn't see coming at all when that stuff should be obvious. Picking a good team is one of the easiest things in dota to do, understanding basic game mechanincs like wow, opposing team has luna maybe I should build bkb and my carry? or we really need a couple stuns to win this team fight vs the all melee carry team. Stuff like that is so basic yet players fail at it constantly. I'm not the best clicker, I don't have exceptional map awareness, but I can easily see that picking pudge vs qop or od mid is a bad idea. It's just simple reading and it pisses me off these players with my same mmr can't figure this out.
TLDR a lot of matches are won because the losing team put themselves in a losing position that could've been avoided, regardless of clicking skill and reaction time
Just started a game, fast checked the first guy on my team. He was between 10 and 100 wins. Not bad, not bad. Disconnect in console before the game started.
Next game. Idiot last picks spectre and goes top when we already got top (venge me and kunkka). He refuses to go away. Left before fb.
I just cannot get how this mm can be THAT fucking bad.
'between 10-100 wins'
if your complaints are with ranked why are you using non ranked data
spec game, MM can do nothing about teams refusing to work together. Whenever I get people arguing I just tell the most reasonable player to stfu be the bigger man. (if you want to act like a child like them do not complain later about MM doing this to you)
@kd
everyone on your team did awful including you so I really do not know what your issue for losing is? play awful and win games? I am sorry that is not how a good match should work.
@ bob... wrong topic for this thread, but... a support requires approximately zero lasthits on lane creeps to get the items needed.
Of course any time a carry can't get to a creep for some reason... yes, take it. But you really do not need that gold.
A good hard support needs from the laning phase => the next set of obs 150 gold, more consumables (tango, salve, dust, sentries, tp scroll) depending on the game maybe 400 gold and brown boots 450 gold. Total is about 1000 gold.
Usually you don't look for teamfights until you have your ult. That will be around 10 minutes unless early fights give extra xp and make it sooner. In 10 minutes you get 1000 gold for free, and can take about 1000 gold from a small pull camp. Its way more than enough. If you don't have enough for boots and the consumables its because you messed up the pulls and/or died more than once.
The reason many support players "feel" that they need to take lasthits is they are uncomfortable having nothing but basic items. But you need to just get over that and realize that throughout the first ten minutes your hero is so much stronger than the other heroes with spells alone that items really are not required. If you get a couple kills and take down a tower you can easily add a core hard support item like Medalion, Urn, or Arcane boots.
At level 2-4 a Crystal Maiden or a Venomancer is far more dangerous than a Lifestealer, Spectre, PA or an Antimage. The carries main advantage at that point in the game is they are bit better at running away. And in the hands of equally skilled players that is what a smart carry should be doing when facing a support hero early on without back up... running.
10 matches played will not put you in ranked, you are pulling numbers out of your ass to fit your own argument. I am sorry it is quite hard to find legit arguments from you when I have to filter through blatant lies and exaggeration
you stated you checked their profile, was that a lie? how can anyone take you serious when we have to go out of our way to catch all your lies and even when caught you try and pretend like it did not happen
Here's some examples that go with my previous point, about how a huge majority of games are swing by asinine decisions regarding team comp and lane setups, decisions which should be extremely easy to fix- just do a tiny bit of reading on the heroes or a few guides. Fortunately I was on the winning side of all these matchups, finally on a nice win streak. Usually these retarded decisions happen on my team so it was nice to be the beneficiary for once.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470565595 This match I was queued with shytown and we purposely chose veno + abbadon for a strong lane. For whatever reason the other team's wraith king decides to jungle at level 1. F'ing retard. Wraith king is a bad jungler and despite bristleback being a strong offlane he can't stand up to a veno aba duo. Mirana also came bottom cus BH insisted on solo offlane so we got an easy first blood on bristle. Then bristle started playing almost behind his tower so I roamed on veno. Unfortunately we didn't push hard enough, mirana decided to keep farming, even though she can't out carry their team late and we almost freakin lost this game to a fat anti mage who basically went rat doto on us the first 45 mins. If their skele king hadn't been such a retard and 3 levels behind (he was lvl 3 when I was 6 or 7) with a 22 min armlet they'd have won easily.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470542244 This match I'm with shytown again and we pick another strong lane, CM + juggernaut. Other team obviously fights over who is going mid cus lina and storm show up there with tiny solo bottom. We first blood tiny. Storm rotates bottom. Still before level 6 storm is very vulnerable and we get a few kills on him and tiny, roll to an easy win. The other team's overall team comp wasn't terrible but they setup their lanes really awful. Storm in lane just isn't very good, lina + tiny or slark + tiny could've done a lot more vs us.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470506505 This one I queued with badmoon and we picked silencer + axe for an aggressive lane. Other team picks jungle chen even though they also pick faceless void, who needs a support with him. Then they throw timbersaw with void in the safe lane (vs me and axe) I guess so bounty can solo off. Timber played extremely passive, probably could've done a little more, but void and timber vs silencer and axe is a pretty lost cause. We absolutely destroyed them, void wasn't even in xp range most of the fighting. And pudge actually won mid vs slark and rolled to a bunch of early kills, they could've wont this is chen had picked a good lane support for a tri lane bottom.
So anyway, in none of those games did I feel we significantly out played the competition, actually in the veno game I felt we played poorly but we still won cus we picked a strong lane and other team picked really bad comps. This is why I feel matchmaking sucks so bad cus MMR can't reflect this at all, people are just dumb more often than not.
MM does not take 1 match and say 'you are a 6k MM player' it takes alot of matches over a long period of time and gives you a approximation. Just because you do not understand how MM works does not mean it is not working how it should
^^ Or stupidliy selfish. Sometimes I think the only reason I have a positive winrate is because I play for the team, no matter if I'm solo and playing with a 4 man stack, I always try to adapt to their strategy...because, being alone and all I'm not going to dickishly impose my orders against a bunch of unknowns who most likely already had a plan in mind. Sometimes I've even been force to pick a carry when I didn't want to...as in, the other guys actually said "Yo, dude, pick a carry fast"
[Lk].Zano, ofc I would post it, why then I created the thread? Use brains.
Sampson, he gave me bottle cuz didnt have space. Stop picking up to retarded details and try to handle the truth that u're wrong.
Even Relentless admitted that mm is shit - and he always makes a super-careful research. Why cant you just live happy in the world where you got a failed opinion?
If it's that bad. Stop playing. Moaning on a forum I doubt very much ANY valve employees bother to read is completely pointless. Just stop playing DotA2 if you hate it that much.
^ Well I actually didnt play doto for like 4 months. You have a point here actually, thought smth would change, but still the same - newbs in the games, idiots here fapping to this mm cuz of free wins, etc.
It was me & BS bot vs Lich, Slark, & CM. They were playing aggressive and BS kept getting caught out. Slark would just pounce > dark pact which would finish me off after just a few hits from either support.
Now, I did make several mistakes, starting with accidentally shallow graving myself once vs BS. Then another, my mana was under SG territory, but I could have used Wand and got it above.
But for some reason, Sand King and Mirana couldn't win a lane vs a solo Axe.
If you want to see what the stacks were look at the end-game screen when you receive items. The names of stacked players are linked together on the left. Often in solo que you play with and against stacks.
If you check the first match that Nick has posted above, its hard to protect the MM system. Even with the worst pick or lane comps with averagely equally skilled players play together, something like this wouldnt happen. Its just a complete outplay in every aspect. That can be sayed however, that they probably made the match last longer to stomp them even more... Jeez, more then 50k gold lead at the end. I think thats more then 20k before even any tier 3 towers and rax touched.
And the others as well... It must have been a real joy to play in those games Nick :S
games snowball out of control even in pro games. In the first match Nick posted it shows while Nick has less deaths it is prob from giving up early and just sitting around (you can see this from similar gpm) A slight advantage can turn into a massive advantage very fast in pub matches where people start flaming by the first blood
So you got 3 bad games? You never fail? Boohooo i lost a game and lost 20 rating...end of the world...I know what to do...go on forums and cry about it... Gtfo losers...stop bitching like a spoiled brats and deal with it... You win some you lose some. Crying about it wont change anything nor will it ever get fixed...its just the way online games are...Kids nowadays...
I never said, he played well, i say the matchup wasnt balanced even before picks. I have expereinced not one game, when we had ok draft, or even better then the enemy, and i felt like from the frist minute of gaming that we will never have a chance to win. The skill gap was just higher then acceptable.
@Sampson... You dont know man... They judge whether the game is lost or won during loading phase...or picking phase...and then if it happens 1 guy from your team to die then they call gg and go afk for most of the game...and then they come here...hating and whining and all that stuff...
Ehm, solo offlaner killing my teammets on trilane? Losing lasthit fight on every lane? Skill builds etc. Havent you played any match with people who did you know by his first acts in the game, that hes a complete noob? Doubt it.
@ Tusy... I doubt that is happening every game. And i still think you have fails of your own but you dont admit failing because hey...its easier to say that your team failed.
Zenoth, hey kiddo, that aint change the fact that mm sucks actually. Your arrogance starts to amuse me.
I actually noticed what, there are always 1 or 2 imbecils mimiming about how good mm is, but why would they do that if they were sure they are right? Butthurt kiddos, butthurt.
Your second paragraph doesn't even make sense. What the hell is an imbecil or mimiming? Neither does the latter half make any sense.
The first paragraph on the other hand applies to you. I come to offer constructive and objective advice while you run about judging people by their kdas. I respect reasoned opinions while you merely put people down and ignore rational arguments. Butthurt, kiddo, butthurt.
@ tusy
A game can snowball out of control from just 1 bad decision very quickly.
I had a Tinker feeding safe lane against a solo naix and blaming the supports. But once bristleback gets a couple of kills on the off lane from over extensions and acquires an item advantage, he can easily rape most team compositions.
Individually they played competently. Picks wise it ws so retarded that they lost from the first minute. Invoker am and storm pick at the same time refusing to repick. All were competent at their respective heroes but played with disregard to team composition.
Seriously guys, just let the guy be. Don't answer anything and if he keeps on posting crap, he'll end up with a thread where it looks like he speaks with himself. Don't take anymore baits and rejoice as the thread ends up [/thread].
http://dotabuff.com/matches/469590219
my last game ... russian furion buying 6 bracers then selling them and buying force + blink so he can jump around the map ... from 30 minutes of the game 25 of them he sit on radiant side cliff ...
and i dont want to comment last pick warlock support with stout shield + phase boots (ofc he bought 0 dewards / wards whole game)
ofc .. they blamed me at the end of the game ... bcz mid always gets blame for "fail" :)
I was going to edit then I missclicked on delete, wat
@bob
You can take some farm if your carry is not there, gank whenever you can for kill assists, do some pullings
I do take farm if carry isn't there, and only then. I'm working on pulling and getting into that rhythm, but I need to keep working on that. Though you did just give me a couple more ideas.
Relentless, playing as supports doesnt help me much. Getting ams like described above 8 out of 10.
@zenoth
Obviously if someone can't last hit, then they just can't last hit and it doesn't matter which carry they pick, but I've seen scrubs destroy much better players in lanes cus the scrubs had a good combo like bristle CM or some other junk the better players just didn't see coming at all when that stuff should be obvious. Picking a good team is one of the easiest things in dota to do, understanding basic game mechanincs like wow, opposing team has luna maybe I should build bkb and my carry? or we really need a couple stuns to win this team fight vs the all melee carry team. Stuff like that is so basic yet players fail at it constantly. I'm not the best clicker, I don't have exceptional map awareness, but I can easily see that picking pudge vs qop or od mid is a bad idea. It's just simple reading and it pisses me off these players with my same mmr can't figure this out.
TLDR a lot of matches are won because the losing team put themselves in a losing position that could've been avoided, regardless of clicking skill and reaction time
Just started a game, fast checked the first guy on my team. He was between 10 and 100 wins. Not bad, not bad. Disconnect in console before the game started.
Next game. Idiot last picks spectre and goes top when we already got top (venge me and kunkka). He refuses to go away. Left before fb.
I just cannot get how this mm can be THAT fucking bad.
'between 10-100 wins'
if your complaints are with ranked why are you using non ranked data
spec game, MM can do nothing about teams refusing to work together. Whenever I get people arguing I just tell the most reasonable player to stfu be the bigger man. (if you want to act like a child like them do not complain later about MM doing this to you)
@kd
everyone on your team did awful including you so I really do not know what your issue for losing is? play awful and win games? I am sorry that is not how a good match should work.
Solo ranked is easy. Pick Lich - Win Game.
Won 10 out of 12 of my ranked Lich games. One loss was 4am after 2 and a half bottles of wine so I wasn't exactly on my best form in that one.
@ bob... wrong topic for this thread, but... a support requires approximately zero lasthits on lane creeps to get the items needed.
Of course any time a carry can't get to a creep for some reason... yes, take it. But you really do not need that gold.
A good hard support needs from the laning phase => the next set of obs 150 gold, more consumables (tango, salve, dust, sentries, tp scroll) depending on the game maybe 400 gold and brown boots 450 gold. Total is about 1000 gold.
Usually you don't look for teamfights until you have your ult. That will be around 10 minutes unless early fights give extra xp and make it sooner. In 10 minutes you get 1000 gold for free, and can take about 1000 gold from a small pull camp. Its way more than enough. If you don't have enough for boots and the consumables its because you messed up the pulls and/or died more than once.
The reason many support players "feel" that they need to take lasthits is they are uncomfortable having nothing but basic items. But you need to just get over that and realize that throughout the first ten minutes your hero is so much stronger than the other heroes with spells alone that items really are not required. If you get a couple kills and take down a tower you can easily add a core hard support item like Medalion, Urn, or Arcane boots.
At level 2-4 a Crystal Maiden or a Venomancer is far more dangerous than a Lifestealer, Spectre, PA or an Antimage. The carries main advantage at that point in the game is they are bit better at running away. And in the hands of equally skilled players that is what a smart carry should be doing when facing a support hero early on without back up... running.
Sampson, that was fucking ranked. And pls stop ignoring half of my arguments.
10 matches played will not put you in ranked, you are pulling numbers out of your ass to fit your own argument. I am sorry it is quite hard to find legit arguments from you when I have to filter through blatant lies and exaggeration
@lie to me agen fagt
These smurfs were stacking. It's a bug most likely.
Sampsom, w/e, maybe he had 200 games, does it matter much to me?
You seem to be a blind and deaf type of a person to me.
If you feel so right, dont go to this thread - cuz here you only gonna be proved wrong.
you stated you checked their profile, was that a lie? how can anyone take you serious when we have to go out of our way to catch all your lies and even when caught you try and pretend like it did not happen
Look fagt - you were proven wrong - if you feel so right, maybe you should leave your own thread.
Here's some examples that go with my previous point, about how a huge majority of games are swing by asinine decisions regarding team comp and lane setups, decisions which should be extremely easy to fix- just do a tiny bit of reading on the heroes or a few guides. Fortunately I was on the winning side of all these matchups, finally on a nice win streak. Usually these retarded decisions happen on my team so it was nice to be the beneficiary for once.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470565595
This match I was queued with shytown and we purposely chose veno + abbadon for a strong lane. For whatever reason the other team's wraith king decides to jungle at level 1. F'ing retard. Wraith king is a bad jungler and despite bristleback being a strong offlane he can't stand up to a veno aba duo. Mirana also came bottom cus BH insisted on solo offlane so we got an easy first blood on bristle. Then bristle started playing almost behind his tower so I roamed on veno. Unfortunately we didn't push hard enough, mirana decided to keep farming, even though she can't out carry their team late and we almost freakin lost this game to a fat anti mage who basically went rat doto on us the first 45 mins. If their skele king hadn't been such a retard and 3 levels behind (he was lvl 3 when I was 6 or 7) with a 22 min armlet they'd have won easily.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470542244
This match I'm with shytown again and we pick another strong lane, CM + juggernaut. Other team obviously fights over who is going mid cus lina and storm show up there with tiny solo bottom. We first blood tiny. Storm rotates bottom. Still before level 6 storm is very vulnerable and we get a few kills on him and tiny, roll to an easy win. The other team's overall team comp wasn't terrible but they setup their lanes really awful. Storm in lane just isn't very good, lina + tiny or slark + tiny could've done a lot more vs us.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470506505
This one I queued with badmoon and we picked silencer + axe for an aggressive lane. Other team picks jungle chen even though they also pick faceless void, who needs a support with him. Then they throw timbersaw with void in the safe lane (vs me and axe) I guess so bounty can solo off. Timber played extremely passive, probably could've done a little more, but void and timber vs silencer and axe is a pretty lost cause. We absolutely destroyed them, void wasn't even in xp range most of the fighting. And pudge actually won mid vs slark and rolled to a bunch of early kills, they could've wont this is chen had picked a good lane support for a tri lane bottom.
So anyway, in none of those games did I feel we significantly out played the competition, actually in the veno game I felt we played poorly but we still won cus we picked a strong lane and other team picked really bad comps. This is why I feel matchmaking sucks so bad cus MMR can't reflect this at all, people are just dumb more often than not.
MM does not take 1 match and say 'you are a 6k MM player' it takes alot of matches over a long period of time and gives you a approximation. Just because you do not understand how MM works does not mean it is not working how it should
^^ Or stupidliy selfish. Sometimes I think the only reason I have a positive winrate is because I play for the team, no matter if I'm solo and playing with a 4 man stack, I always try to adapt to their strategy...because, being alone and all I'm not going to dickishly impose my orders against a bunch of unknowns who most likely already had a plan in mind. Sometimes I've even been force to pick a carry when I didn't want to...as in, the other guys actually said "Yo, dude, pick a carry fast"
Stop butthurting please, how many times should I ask you kiddos?
Btw, another nice game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471194261
Clock died 3 times mid before 8 min, then said it was ok. Lycan is shit, kunkka is shit.
Checked kunkka's profile. Ofc mere 2-3 kda trash.
Ggwp trashcans.
I'm not sure what to think about someone calling people butthurts and then posting every single lost game of his.
^^ if clockwerk was mid why exactly do you have a bottle instead of a mek?
[Lk].Zano, ofc I would post it, why then I created the thread? Use brains.
Sampson, he gave me bottle cuz didnt have space. Stop picking up to retarded details and try to handle the truth that u're wrong.
Even Relentless admitted that mm is shit - and he always makes a super-careful research. Why cant you just live happy in the world where you got a failed opinion?
If it's that bad. Stop playing. Moaning on a forum I doubt very much ANY valve employees bother to read is completely pointless. Just stop playing DotA2 if you hate it that much.
Simples.
^ Well I actually didnt play doto for like 4 months. You have a point here actually, thought smth would change, but still the same - newbs in the games, idiots here fapping to this mm cuz of free wins, etc.
To be fair, I do like my free wins, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap, fap :D
I blame Lich being OP though, not MM.
^ Another Gaben's anal slave, mhmhm.
if you quit and never come back valve might take you serious
you can get in ranked with 0 games if you only play bot games, that mean you ll be 0-0 and with 3k mmr dring calibration phase
i also agree that mm sucks but i admit valve cannot do anything about it solo mm will always be flawed while peruvians walk free
I should create a thread "And lie to me again fagt keeps sucking even worse", and post his games and all the stupid shit he does.
I've had a couple terrible games lately, but this one really sticks out.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/470552831
Pretty sure it was a 3-4 stack, at the least.
It was me & BS bot vs Lich, Slark, & CM. They were playing aggressive and BS kept getting caught out. Slark would just pounce > dark pact which would finish me off after just a few hits from either support.
Now, I did make several mistakes, starting with accidentally shallow graving myself once vs BS. Then another, my mana was under SG territory, but I could have used Wand and got it above.
But for some reason, Sand King and Mirana couldn't win a lane vs a solo Axe.
If you want to see what the stacks were look at the end-game screen when you receive items. The names of stacked players are linked together on the left. Often in solo que you play with and against stacks.
I know, I just didn't stick around to look because I was disgusted in the game itself.
I know it was at least a 3-stack.
Just loose 3 in row,no coment:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471357823
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471306350
http://dotabuff.com/matches/471267175
I try to speak with them,but obviously nobody speak english or try to play like team just dive and die.....
If you check the first match that Nick has posted above, its hard to protect the MM system. Even with the worst pick or lane comps with averagely equally skilled players play together, something like this wouldnt happen. Its just a complete outplay in every aspect. That can be sayed however, that they probably made the match last longer to stomp them even more... Jeez, more then 50k gold lead at the end. I think thats more then 20k before even any tier 3 towers and rax touched.
And the others as well... It must have been a real joy to play in those games Nick :S
games snowball out of control even in pro games. In the first match Nick posted it shows while Nick has less deaths it is prob from giving up early and just sitting around (you can see this from similar gpm) A slight advantage can turn into a massive advantage very fast in pub matches where people start flaming by the first blood
And that's just the point. Sometimes you just get severely outplayed. :(
Ok. So, you think the two team was almost equally skilled, and just snowballed out of control. Post a game similiar to this from your games.
So you got 3 bad games? You never fail? Boohooo i lost a game and lost 20 rating...end of the world...I know what to do...go on forums and cry about it... Gtfo losers...stop bitching like a spoiled brats and deal with it... You win some you lose some. Crying about it wont change anything nor will it ever get fixed...its just the way online games are...Kids nowadays...
I never said, he played well, i say the matchup wasnt balanced even before picks. I have expereinced not one game, when we had ok draft, or even better then the enemy, and i felt like from the frist minute of gaming that we will never have a chance to win. The skill gap was just higher then acceptable.
you base that on what? a feeling? X hero didnt buy the item dendi usually buys therefore I called the game before the creeps spawned???
@Sampson... You dont know man... They judge whether the game is lost or won during loading phase...or picking phase...and then if it happens 1 guy from your team to die then they call gg and go afk for most of the game...and then they come here...hating and whining and all that stuff...
Ehm, solo offlaner killing my teammets on trilane? Losing lasthit fight on every lane? Skill builds etc. Havent you played any match with people who did you know by his first acts in the game, that hes a complete noob? Doubt it.
I hate people that do that. Absolutely hate it.
@ Tusy... I doubt that is happening every game. And i still think you have fails of your own but you dont admit failing because hey...its easier to say that your team failed.
I tend to recognize my mistakes. And yes, its not happening every game. Just in that many to dont really move from my calibrated rating.
Zenoth, hey kiddo, that aint change the fact that mm sucks actually. Your arrogance starts to amuse me.
I actually noticed what, there are always 1 or 2 imbecils mimiming about how good mm is, but why would they do that if they were sure they are right? Butthurt kiddos, butthurt.
Your second paragraph doesn't even make sense. What the hell is an imbecil or mimiming? Neither does the latter half make any sense.
The first paragraph on the other hand applies to you. I come to offer constructive and objective advice while you run about judging people by their kdas. I respect reasoned opinions while you merely put people down and ignore rational arguments. Butthurt, kiddo, butthurt.
@ tusy
A game can snowball out of control from just 1 bad decision very quickly.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/466384826
I had a Tinker feeding safe lane against a solo naix and blaming the supports. But once bristleback gets a couple of kills on the off lane from over extensions and acquires an item advantage, he can easily rape most team compositions.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/467614436
Individually they played competently. Picks wise it ws so retarded that they lost from the first minute. Invoker am and storm pick at the same time refusing to repick. All were competent at their respective heroes but played with disregard to team composition.
^ Bait = taken.
Seriously guys, just let the guy be. Don't answer anything and if he keeps on posting crap, he'll end up with a thread where it looks like he speaks with himself. Don't take anymore baits and rejoice as the thread ends up [/thread].