i tryed this canceling finding match. at 2min i cancel and re find. it never finds game. it needs at least 3min with search range bar filled up quite nicely. of course range is expanded to higher and lower mmr matches. guess what matches are more frequent generally, higher or lower MMR. that match u get
oh and every single game that you posted you go full on rice doto builds. if you've been playing this game for so long surely you should have figured out by now that pub games are decided in the first 10-15 mins. you go midas on doom which will completely screw your team since you're useless for an even longer period of time instead of getting arcanes/phase and then a shadowblade/mek.
the whole point of a jungle doom is to kinda screw your team in the first 5 mins but be more powerful than a laning support after 10 minutes or so. by going midas you make yourself even more useless for a longer period of time instead of trying to help your team and letting your carry do the carrying. you also go first item aghas which is prolly the worst item you could have gotten.
you then pick antimage and go battlefury which is another hero+build that is useless for the first 20-25 minutes or so. you have 113 cs in a 31 minute match, it should be at least 200. you go 2-5 and you don't do shit to help your team out. i mean ur solo mid has more farm than you and ur supports are like 2k behind you. pretty shitty farm you get for yourself.
and then you go ring of aquila on BH and are level 8 in 16 minutes. once again shitty use of the hero. you're involved in 2 of your teams 5 kills which is pretty crappy and you have a quelling blade...and only 29 last hits so definitely not a farming hero.
tl;dr shitty item choice/hero utilization and understanding of how semicarrying/carrying works/how to farm and you're complaining about your team. learn to fucking play your role before criticizing others and blaming them when you're just as bad if not worse as the selfish carry picker that thinks hes a god.
Exactly preloode, that's why I've been trying to pick mid game carry heroes and carry these broken teams, but even then it's freakin hard cus whole team ends up as carry. Probably 80% of my losses are lost during the picks. I feel like the actual player skill is similar to my mine and matched ok from that perspective, but the general knowledge of dota2 and picking is completely lost on most of these teams.
My last 4 losses-
http://dotabuff.com/matches/436418907 I played terrible as slark, but game was completely lost when guy went naix jungle instead of laning with witch dr. Dr feed bristle top to start off 0-8, not his fault though, he can't solo a lane. Other team had a two man party that intentionally picked bristle and CM to lane together. Again, why no solo queue option? In hindsight I should've gone with dr and let windranger offlane but our team never discussed our lanes.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/436388063 Lion game, I played alright, decent lanes, but our skele king went midas and lina built shadow blade first... terrible items, put us way behind then their carries came in and raped.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/433023642 Legion commander jungles, goes shadow blade, feeds other team with ult. GG. Also our mid picked pudge early and got rolled by death prophet. He was in my party, I gave him an earful for such a stupid pick.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/432990481 This game was an utter debacle all around. First guy randoms magnus, ok not the best but whatever. I pick luna, next guy picks phantom assassin. Awesome. Next two picks are natures cus "only shot to win is super pusher" and chaos knight cus "I don't play support." freaking dumbasses
So anyway you can see my struggles with matchmaking, really bad item choices or lanes or picks, just general dota knowledge that should be obvious but people still do stupid shit. If I go support people pick retarded items and we lose, if I go carry people make stupid hero picks and we lose. Not sure how to fix this via MMR.
niners won bch, lol you really think that my items choice and farm and score are worse than my teammates'? You have to have down syndrome or something - better go to doctor.
At last I had 1 decent game (out of 100), thanks monkies from Valve.
Why solo queue Captains mode unless you are with a couple of players you can trust. Are you saying you have never had a bad game where you failed for no explainable reason?
If the someone feeds it's their fault but if you feed its the carries and everyone elses fault for not calling SS or whatever the excuse. The match making system at current can at times be frustrating but for the most part it gives where it can a fair game.
I will agree though on that game that the captain drafted completely wank but on the other hand people continuously refuse to admit they got outplayed or that a game got away from them. Its something that I have learned while playing with my team is that sometimes the game hits a stage and its not that anyone is playing particularly bad its the nature of the game that you are bound to lose a game badly.
OA*_Havoc Badger, I know what 'fair game' is. And this is not free win or loss how kiddos on this forum think. I have had a real 'fair game' literally 1 time out of my like 40 or 50 previous games. So consider this pls.
theres no point in playing ranked if you have 5k+ rating, its just not fucking worth it my niggas im going back to normal mm peace out haters gonna hate at least i have 5k+ rating
Yet another game where matching was so bad winning was completely impossible. Search took 6 minutes to find this one. I canceled one at 4 min just before this, then decided to accept the next one to show how stupid it can get. Valve has no standards for MMR range at all.
At least I got over 10 cs/min against that broodmother. That was fun. But it was not possible to go save everyone from feeding and kill spiders. This spirit breaker trapped himself in trees 7 times charging at brood. My dragon knight actually had AC for the last 10 minutes of the game, but could never figure out how to put it together.
My KDA for sand king 5... teams KDA for comparison.
These players should never be placed on a team with me. Its just lazy and careless for Valve to do this. Was the game overall MMR balanced? There is no way to know. Valve is afraid so show it so they hide. Do they even keep track themselves? I doubt it. They only want to know in aggregate did players get closer to 50% win.
At some point I hope Gabe realizes just how terrible it is for someone to have 2 whole years to try to improve a system and still have errors this glaring in it... And fires them. Over a year ago Gabe said he knew it was "pretty crappy" and it still is.
A game like this is not the fault of my team. They had no choice but to face players far better than themselves to make up for my MMR score being much higher. Valve screwed them over. That is why they fed.
To some extent MMR works, players are matched together, sure.
The rating thing, I'm not so sure of. There are players in 3.0-4.0 range that are far better, and then again there are players in 4.0-5.0 that are far worse. 1.0-3.0 and 5.0-6.X are fine to my belief. The bell curve is strange.
I solo queue captain's draft and end up with teammates below 50% win rate. I don't even bother to take captain slot since it's quite obvious that there's a stack so I let them draft the way they like. I last pick and dictate the pace of the game. Were my opponents better than my teammate? Definitely. Did MM force me to lose? No such bullshit.
they are just bunch of clueless fagots that can only buy mods and copy shit just think about stuff they designed on their own ie. hall of fame / hero performance bars I and II / old mute system / report system overall / match maker its just failure after failure if valve couldnt buy out mods their company would go under long time ago
Zenoth, u call a game unbalanced when u had like 10k gold difference and 10 level difference? Then u dont know what unbalanced game is. So u're wrong, move out.
He might have wasted 11k gold on crap items but does that matter? He still did as much damage as the best player from Radiant.
And he did that while being dragged down by 4 feeders.
Should he lose rating? I think not. He should get as much as the winners or maybe even more, given the fact that he managed to deal as much damage as them when the opponents were being fed by his teammates.
maybe you didnt realise the 10 level difference was in their advantage? yes yes, we can generalize about a system from individual experiences - since all individual experiences are equally relevant, i'm just here to counter your points.
Yes, he should lose rating. It's not difficult to just sit against a brood and get fed spiders. A good player would use that gold to help his team, not to go some weird ass build that does nothing.
When you stuck on 2500-2600 MMR like me and a lots of people you can't go up so easily,i try everything,carry,supp....In matches you loose you always have one or two idiots who feed till 15min with 10 deaths,playing carry Lion,mid Lina etc etc....
If you guys who have 3-4-5+ rating thinks you are so better you think wrong,a lots of people stuck after calibration on this rating and can't go up,did i need to mention quit idiots,guys with 10 accounts who fucking around feed and use abilities on teammates ???
I'm close to 50% wins,level 70,watched and played a lots of games,i'm solid player but i can't make 30+ kills which is needed if you want to win with (read lines before).....
Same situation is in AP-CM-CD.
So I decided to watch Relentless' game. Since Relentless likes to write lengthy explanations on games, I decided to Relentless Relentless.
It's true that the spiritbreaker was particularly bad, both feeding courier at level 1 and dying to a trilane multiple times. But consider that he was facing silencer, one of the kings of harassing, along with double disables from CM and Wraith King. Perhaps he could have played it safer, but I wouldn't be so quick to flame him - he couldn't even get into exp range safely.
As for Relentless - you definitely could have done alot more for your team. Camping top to stop Brood's pushes is fine and dandy - but you blow 2 epicenters on killing spiders without bothering to ferry in dust or sentries - an investment in either could have gotten you that kill instead of stupidly watching him disappear into his web and watching the ground vibrate around you.
You also camped top all the way until the first counter-gank attempt at 14 minutes without buying a single tp scroll. Several times you had the opportunity to turn around ganks in other lanes (DK actually fared decently against Pudge in lane, by the way), but you didnt bother to buy a single tp and instead filled your extra slots with branches the whole of early game.
In fact, at 15 minutes, you only bought a single tp which you promptly used to go back to top. Next time buy two tps. It is a worthy investment, and you had 1.5k gold at that moment. At 17:16 there is a gank on your teammates near your bottom t1 tower in the river, and if you had a tp scroll you could blink in with epicenter and clear their team. But you are too nub to enforce the habit of carrying around a tp scroll. Instead, you have to saunter over to the side shop to buy one, reaching there ~10 seconds later than you could have had otherwise, resulting in losing a crucial teamfight.
At 20 minutes you blow another epi on an invisible brood. For some reason you dislike buying detection. You are not even using your slots for a damned tp scroll - sell that casual stout shield and get dust or sentries so that you can actually kill the broodmother. These kind of investments pay off themselves. In fact, because you wasted that epicenter on killing spiderlings, your next fight at mid lane 40 seconds later doesn't swing your way because all you could do was blink and burrowstrike. It is not worth it to keep using epi on a solo broodmother, especially when you have already tried it twice and both failed miserably. Apparently you are too nub to learn from your mistakes.
24 minutes and I have yet to see you carry a tp scroll on you....
That was enough for me. It is true that you were playing better than the rest of your team, but that was expected considering brood was terrible and fed you wave after wave of spiderlings, giving you a significant gold and exp advantage (coupled with the fact that lich left the lane and you were basically getting solo experience against brood). However, you could have very easily carried that game and made a more significant difference - I won't diss on your early item choices, which I felt were situationally relevant, although the Radiance was a costly and pointless investment. It is fully possible Valve gave you worse teammates than you, but your poor decision making and lack of good habits played a part in costing the game. You could have converted the early advantage you got from your lane into better team fights for your team, but you failed to do so.
Oh, and I took special care to make sure my choice of words mirrored yours. Don't get me wrong, I respect how you evaluate people's plays and argue in a rational manner, but sometimes it pays to look into a mirror.
tl;dr relentless plays like a 3500-4000 rating player
"He might have wasted 11k gold on crap items but does that matter? He still did as much damage as the best player from Radiant. And he did that while being dragged down by 4 feeders. Should he lose rating?"
I am not sure whether he should lose rating. But why not look at the 'tower damage' and claim he didnt do much about it? Isnt the goal of the game to get buildings too?
Why should the damage from the best player in radiant matter to the argument, if that damage cannot win the game?
Ofc, perhaps Relentless's point is that no player can win with his example team and heroes. In that case it IS unfair and he is right. But I wonder whether thats true.
@fagt - you bring your experience of "imbalanced games", i bring my own experience of "imbalanced games". i'm just playing along with your terrible logic. Since you experience games you feel are imbalanced, i'm just doing the same, except for one thing - winning them. 5300 rating matched with sub 50% win rate players and winning despite my team being behind by 22k exp. That is as relevant as your examples of brain dead retarded teammates, except you weren't competent enough to make a difference.
^ My terrible logic is when my teammates feed 0-5 as a carry on ez lane, supports farming woods, mid going for 2-11 score and telling he won... If you werent in these games you dont know shit then.
Telling you once more, maybe u're average, thats why matchmaking gives an average game for u - while I'm better than average, forced to lose some amount of games.
People tend to forget that dota is a team game sitting and farming in your lane does not win games. Taking kills and using those kills to take out building is what wins games. The brood fed him wave after wave after wave of spiderlings so it really is not surprising he had alot of gold.
5.3k solo, regularly matched with pros, average by their standards perhaps. Maybe you're secretly ranked 6k. But at my rating I already end up in Blue or Pink for solo queue 90% of the time, which some have postulated to be the position with the longest queue time - usually indicating that your rating is one of the hardest to match for at that time.
Everything happens for a reason. You are just showing your side of the story. Just like how Relentless claims his game was "unwinnable", but what really happened was that he made alot of basic mistakes and bad decisions. It just felt "unwinnable" even though it really wasn't. If I bothered to watch your games I'm sure I could tell you why some things happened. Blaming matchmaking for all these things is just immature and childish.
if you are better than avg you will proceed to get better than avg opponents and teammates. Logically if everyone is getting noobs on their team doesnt that also mean you are fighting noobs?
Sampson, so you gonna say that was a balanced game or what? I dont really get why to even open a mouth if you dont have any arguments to suggest, or any idea to describe.
Zenoth, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but these Valve numbers mean no shit. I've seen barealy 4k players pwning as hell and 5k players getting sf last pick and 0-10 score. You really think that if you get some number insert-any-number-here then u're good in this matchmaking? :P
^^ I'm really not surprised that people with 5k have an ego big enough to last pick unneeded carries because they are so pro they can make everyone win and not think about a little thing called team composition, in fact...is anyone actually surprised?
I m 4800 mmr solo queue and last game I had batrider 2-10-2 midle, 28 minuta no dagger. Had Ursa who want to farm bottom same as sf,so Sf,Ursa and Veno 3 lane bottom. Never seen smth like this before Sf DON`T WANT TO GO MID Ursa DON`t WANT TO GO WOOD holy crap lol.
tinker autolocks, calls carry, dies twice to solo offlane naix. opponents tryhard tiny wisp. tinker starts flaming supports, calls gg, noob team. qop loses mid to invoker, kotol dces and nobody wants to pause for him.
wtf volvo why match me with such noob?
doesn't matter, just smash their tri-lane apart, rotate and rape enemies everywhere, create space, carry game.
so what if you get bad players? chances are if you got bad teammates your opponents are equally bad. if you cant outplay your opponents then you don't have the right to complain about the system.
@ Zenoth You are right. I did not play a team game this time. Nearly every game I attempt to help my team at all costs. But this game I accepted the 6 min long match and picked sandking to kill spiders and stayed top and got radiance... eventually... all because I wanted to show exactly how bad my team really was without me.
I wanted to show just how massively they would lose if I was not constantly saving them like I do in my normal games. This game illustrates the absurd burden put on the top MMR player in bad matches. To win this game, maybe I could have picked something like storm spirit 92% win for me or Zues 78% win for me... soloed mid... maybe I could kill enemy feeders faster than my team fed. But that is not a good match.
In a good match all the players should be near equal skill. That was clearly not the case in this game. Please understand the point here is not to complain about my personal problems. I know there are a lot of things I could have done differently in this game. The point is to show how unfair the game was to the feeder players. They can't beat the people Valve placed them against. They had no chance at all.
A year ago I tried to make all kinds of excused and explanations for the bizzare matching situations "lie to me" and others were complaining about. I did not want to believe that Valve would do such a bad job on matching and refuse to fix it so I tried to rationalize. But long experience has proven that they really do make terrible matches sometimes and do not notice, do not care... have no intention of fixing it.
Again I quote from Valve's statement about its own evaluation of its matching process "It’s not critical if the metric misidentifies some edge cases (a game that it measures as close was actually a blowout), since we are typically are only concerned with the aggregate response " They DO NOT CARE if their metric sometimes is fantastically wrong because it eventually cancels out in wins and losses for large numbers of players.
I will get games where the other team has 2, 3 4 feeders against me and its so easy I could win while nearly asleep or drunk. I have also posted examples of such super easy wins in the past trying to illustrate the same point. This is not a problem that keeps my MMR down or winrate down... or something like that. The problem is some matches are bad and Valve will not even try to fix it.
You do have a point. The problem is that we don't know the MMR margins that the matchmaking system has to deal with. All players probably play at a level +-500 from their indicated rank, depending on picks, mood and the thousand other factors that subtly affect their performance which MM has no control over. Couple that with the fact that many players are selfish, and do not play to win but rather for their "fun", you should know full well that even if everyone on both teams have identical MMRs, the game can and will result in stomps very often. 3000 mmr players can sometimes carry 5000 mmr games, and 5000 mmr players will sometimes feed 3000 mmr games. Of course, these are as valve puts it, edge cases.
Honestly, I'm not sure that longer queue times for lesser margins will resolve these problems. Too many issues stem from the fact that human players vary too much in performance from hero to hero, game to game, situation to situation, lane to lane. Personally I find it easier to accept that matchmaking is mostly doing what it can, and that I will get idiots as teammates occasionally, just as how I will get really good players as teammates here and there.
I personally believe that you will have edge cases no matter what. Just as how matches between top teams will sometimes result in absurd stomps (remember quantic versus alliance, where you complimented loda's alchemist for adding spray early against an aggressive tri?), no mater how balanced games get it is not possible to acquire some form of metric which can reliably measure skill while accounting for fluctuations in performance due to the absurd number of variables involved. And as long as this metric can only provide a rough approximation, then matchmaking can only attempt to average out in the long run.
You are free to disagree, of course, but some discussion would be nice.
The question zenoth is would a 5k player won that relentless game with sand king?
For me the answer is no.
Can a 5k player win ALL this kind of games if they pick snowball heroes ?
For me the answer is yes.
Sampson, yes the opponents are USUALLY ( when matchmaking doesnt fail this hard ) igual as bad as your team, but if the opponent good player is playing a snowball kind of hero ( lets say bounty ) it will be easier for him to stomp your players than it will be for you to stomp the enemies bad players if you are playing something like crystal maiden.
Like vandal wrote on this forum some time ago would be nice to see a 5k player get a 3k player account and go up to 5k playing only support ( only solo queue ). That would be posible, but with a insane amount of games. In theory if you are a 5k player you should be able to make a 3k account go to 5 k in 10 games, but this is literally imposible by how the matchmaking works now.
Zenoth the game should create a 50 % probability of losing or winning for relentless skill level, so if he needs to play A LOT better to even have a little posibility of winning a game then something is wrong.
My point is that the game is most likely creating a 50% probability for him to the best of its ability. However, it is doing this based on the current rating system, which cannot account for fluctuations in player performance. If you have 3/4 teammates playing below their usual level, while the enemy team is playing at their usual level, that alone will cause the game to look extremely skewed. In the long run, it will average out, but unfortunately just 1 player playing unusually bad can easily cause the whole game to go south, especially if he feeds a snowballer. This is not something that the matchmaking system can reliably account for.
Example: I play TA alot, over 70% win rate at 300 games. I can honestly say that I have won nearly all even matchups, even against competitive players. But there was this one game where, against a Pudge, despite laning well I ate a hook while Refract was off cooldown and died to him. With the advantage he got I died twice more in lane to him and he snowballed and raped my team. Any pub teammates I had that match would be complaining about how useless I was, braindead autistic retard goes mid with TA and loses to Pudge, and even if the MMR accounted for individual hero performance it wouldn't be able to account for such happenings. If one of them was someone like lie to me the match would probably be posted to dotabuff forums.
Now with 10 players and so many games played, it is inevitable that such games will happen in the long run. Can a system really try to accomodate such fluctuations? That is something you can try to answer yourself, before repeatedly blaming volvo and fat gaben.
why should a 3k MM account go from 3k to 5k in 10 games? dumb shit like that would ruin the system. Smurf accounts alrdy make it hard enough to deal with MM. Relentless himself said he threw the game so you can stop talking about the bullshit that valve forced a loss on him. Relentless thinks he is 800x better than he actually is, this also applies to a majority of the players
"If you have 3/4 teammates playing below their usual level, while the enemy team is playing at their usual level, that alone will cause the game to look extremely skewed."
The problem is by that logic i feel that its almost imposible to find a game where everyone on both teams are playing at their usual level. Plus if we are talking about your MMR the fact that one simple player on your team can make you lose points its pretty sad.
"Relentless himself said he threw the game so you can stop talking about the bullshit that valve forced a loss on him."
Ok so he lost points ( in theory he got worst at the game ) by still playing better than his teammates (even throwing) , if the best football player gets into the worst football team in the world his team is still going to lose (even if they are playing against bad teams too, because they are literally the worst ), but that makes him a bad player ?
I still think that individual performance is something too important to just ignore like this system does.
Btw does someone knows why some people can even get +0 points when they win ? that its a joke .....
I can confirm that
i tryed this canceling finding match. at 2min i cancel and re find. it never finds game. it needs at least 3min with search range bar filled up quite nicely. of course range is expanded to higher and lower mmr matches. guess what matches are more frequent generally, higher or lower MMR. that match u get
oh and every single game that you posted you go full on rice doto builds. if you've been playing this game for so long surely you should have figured out by now that pub games are decided in the first 10-15 mins. you go midas on doom which will completely screw your team since you're useless for an even longer period of time instead of getting arcanes/phase and then a shadowblade/mek.
the whole point of a jungle doom is to kinda screw your team in the first 5 mins but be more powerful than a laning support after 10 minutes or so. by going midas you make yourself even more useless for a longer period of time instead of trying to help your team and letting your carry do the carrying. you also go first item aghas which is prolly the worst item you could have gotten.
you then pick antimage and go battlefury which is another hero+build that is useless for the first 20-25 minutes or so. you have 113 cs in a 31 minute match, it should be at least 200. you go 2-5 and you don't do shit to help your team out. i mean ur solo mid has more farm than you and ur supports are like 2k behind you. pretty shitty farm you get for yourself.
and then you go ring of aquila on BH and are level 8 in 16 minutes. once again shitty use of the hero. you're involved in 2 of your teams 5 kills which is pretty crappy and you have a quelling blade...and only 29 last hits so definitely not a farming hero.
tl;dr shitty item choice/hero utilization and understanding of how semicarrying/carrying works/how to farm and you're complaining about your team. learn to fucking play your role before criticizing others and blaming them when you're just as bad if not worse as the selfish carry picker that thinks hes a god.
inb4 more valve hate
Go far! Your account is private.. You suck go watch purgegamer.
Exactly preloode, that's why I've been trying to pick mid game carry heroes and carry these broken teams, but even then it's freakin hard cus whole team ends up as carry. Probably 80% of my losses are lost during the picks. I feel like the actual player skill is similar to my mine and matched ok from that perspective, but the general knowledge of dota2 and picking is completely lost on most of these teams.
My last 4 losses-
http://dotabuff.com/matches/436418907
I played terrible as slark, but game was completely lost when guy went naix jungle instead of laning with witch dr. Dr feed bristle top to start off 0-8, not his fault though, he can't solo a lane. Other team had a two man party that intentionally picked bristle and CM to lane together. Again, why no solo queue option? In hindsight I should've gone with dr and let windranger offlane but our team never discussed our lanes.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/436388063
Lion game, I played alright, decent lanes, but our skele king went midas and lina built shadow blade first... terrible items, put us way behind then their carries came in and raped.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/433023642
Legion commander jungles, goes shadow blade, feeds other team with ult. GG. Also our mid picked pudge early and got rolled by death prophet. He was in my party, I gave him an earful for such a stupid pick.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/432990481
This game was an utter debacle all around. First guy randoms magnus, ok not the best but whatever. I pick luna, next guy picks phantom assassin. Awesome. Next two picks are natures cus "only shot to win is super pusher" and chaos knight cus "I don't play support." freaking dumbasses
So anyway you can see my struggles with matchmaking, really bad item choices or lanes or picks, just general dota knowledge that should be obvious but people still do stupid shit. If I go support people pick retarded items and we lose, if I go carry people make stupid hero picks and we lose. Not sure how to fix this via MMR.
niners won bch, lol you really think that my items choice and farm and score are worse than my teammates'? You have to have down syndrome or something - better go to doctor.
At last I had 1 decent game (out of 100), thanks monkies from Valve.
But the next game...
http://dotabuff.com/matches/460300769
Idiot ls feeding 5 times on ez lane in triple, idiot captain not banning od - why? - better ban visage.
Ggwp Vulva imbecils.
Why solo queue Captains mode unless you are with a couple of players you can trust. Are you saying you have never had a bad game where you failed for no explainable reason?
If the someone feeds it's their fault but if you feed its the carries and everyone elses fault for not calling SS or whatever the excuse. The match making system at current can at times be frustrating but for the most part it gives where it can a fair game.
I will agree though on that game that the captain drafted completely wank but on the other hand people continuously refuse to admit they got outplayed or that a game got away from them. Its something that I have learned while playing with my team is that sometimes the game hits a stage and its not that anyone is playing particularly bad its the nature of the game that you are bound to lose a game badly.
@OP
http://www.nerfnow.com/comic/1197
^ 1-2 kda guy thinks he actually can play doto.
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BdYWIA1CYAEIlRd.jpg[/IMG]
from devs forum
^ Thats matchmaking in nutshell.
OA*_Havoc Badger, I know what 'fair game' is. And this is not free win or loss how kiddos on this forum think. I have had a real 'fair game' literally 1 time out of my like 40 or 50 previous games. So consider this pls.
lol that pic, i know this feeling
theres no point in playing ranked if you have 5k+ rating, its just not fucking worth it my niggas im going back to normal mm peace out haters gonna hate at least i have 5k+ rating
Another great game from braindead Gaben.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/463655172
Tiny thinks he actually can carry - but nope, he is an idiot!
Retard randoms od and keeps him though he ofc doesnt know how to play him.
Enemies are typical tryhards at their best with roaming dusts runes wards smokes tps etc ti4 incoming.
Ggwp as usual.
LOL i also had a game with GhettoBlaster and he killed couriers for no reason :S
http://dotabuff.com/matches/465683426
Yet another game where matching was so bad winning was completely impossible. Search took 6 minutes to find this one. I canceled one at 4 min just before this, then decided to accept the next one to show how stupid it can get. Valve has no standards for MMR range at all.
At least I got over 10 cs/min against that broodmother. That was fun. But it was not possible to go save everyone from feeding and kill spiders. This spirit breaker trapped himself in trees 7 times charging at brood. My dragon knight actually had AC for the last 10 minutes of the game, but could never figure out how to put it together.
My KDA for sand king 5... teams KDA for comparison.
Sand King 5.0
Lich 1.4
Dragon Knight 0.7
Spirit Breaker 1.1
Ursa 1.7
These players should never be placed on a team with me. Its just lazy and careless for Valve to do this. Was the game overall MMR balanced? There is no way to know. Valve is afraid so show it so they hide. Do they even keep track themselves? I doubt it. They only want to know in aggregate did players get closer to 50% win.
At some point I hope Gabe realizes just how terrible it is for someone to have 2 whole years to try to improve a system and still have errors this glaring in it... And fires them. Over a year ago Gabe said he knew it was "pretty crappy" and it still is.
A game like this is not the fault of my team. They had no choice but to face players far better than themselves to make up for my MMR score being much higher. Valve screwed them over. That is why they fed.
To some extent MMR works, players are matched together, sure.
The rating thing, I'm not so sure of. There are players in 3.0-4.0 range that are far better, and then again there are players in 4.0-5.0 that are far worse. 1.0-3.0 and 5.0-6.X are fine to my belief. The bell curve is strange.
@relentless
your teammates have similar stats to you, the only difference between you and your teammates is the fact the brood fed you spiderlings all game
I actually quite surprised that Relentless himself said that mm works like shit.
Before that I can recall that Relentless was trying to protect it.
But when he got some shit, he understood. Clear how things work.
when relentless found out how low he was his opinions changed
^ Dont try to hide the truth, kiddo. MM is shit and everyone who thinks different are guys getting carried by shitty system to wins.
^ ya, so who does the carrying? Going full retard as usual.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/464830387
I solo queue captain's draft and end up with teammates below 50% win rate. I don't even bother to take captain slot since it's quite obvious that there's a stack so I let them draft the way they like. I last pick and dictate the pace of the game. Were my opponents better than my teammate? Definitely. Did MM force me to lose? No such bullshit.
they are just bunch of clueless fagots that can only buy mods and copy shit just think about stuff they designed on their own ie. hall of fame / hero performance bars I and II / old mute system / report system overall / match maker its just failure after failure if valve couldnt buy out mods their company would go under long time ago
Zenoth, u call a game unbalanced when u had like 10k gold difference and 10 level difference? Then u dont know what unbalanced game is. So u're wrong, move out.
relentless if you didn't waste 11k gold on crap items then maybe you could have won that game
He might have wasted 11k gold on crap items but does that matter? He still did as much damage as the best player from Radiant.
And he did that while being dragged down by 4 feeders.
Should he lose rating? I think not. He should get as much as the winners or maybe even more, given the fact that he managed to deal as much damage as them when the opponents were being fed by his teammates.
maybe you didnt realise the 10 level difference was in their advantage? yes yes, we can generalize about a system from individual experiences - since all individual experiences are equally relevant, i'm just here to counter your points.
Yes, he should lose rating. It's not difficult to just sit against a brood and get fed spiders. A good player would use that gold to help his team, not to go some weird ass build that does nothing.
When you stuck on 2500-2600 MMR like me and a lots of people you can't go up so easily,i try everything,carry,supp....In matches you loose you always have one or two idiots who feed till 15min with 10 deaths,playing carry Lion,mid Lina etc etc....
If you guys who have 3-4-5+ rating thinks you are so better you think wrong,a lots of people stuck after calibration on this rating and can't go up,did i need to mention quit idiots,guys with 10 accounts who fucking around feed and use abilities on teammates ???
I'm close to 50% wins,level 70,watched and played a lots of games,i'm solid player but i can't make 30+ kills which is needed if you want to win with (read lines before).....
Same situation is in AP-CM-CD.
Zenoth, so u bring an exeprience of 1 balanced game, saying it was unbalanced and they stating this as a counter to my point? Such failed logic.
So I decided to watch Relentless' game. Since Relentless likes to write lengthy explanations on games, I decided to Relentless Relentless.
It's true that the spiritbreaker was particularly bad, both feeding courier at level 1 and dying to a trilane multiple times. But consider that he was facing silencer, one of the kings of harassing, along with double disables from CM and Wraith King. Perhaps he could have played it safer, but I wouldn't be so quick to flame him - he couldn't even get into exp range safely.
As for Relentless - you definitely could have done alot more for your team. Camping top to stop Brood's pushes is fine and dandy - but you blow 2 epicenters on killing spiders without bothering to ferry in dust or sentries - an investment in either could have gotten you that kill instead of stupidly watching him disappear into his web and watching the ground vibrate around you.
You also camped top all the way until the first counter-gank attempt at 14 minutes without buying a single tp scroll. Several times you had the opportunity to turn around ganks in other lanes (DK actually fared decently against Pudge in lane, by the way), but you didnt bother to buy a single tp and instead filled your extra slots with branches the whole of early game.
In fact, at 15 minutes, you only bought a single tp which you promptly used to go back to top. Next time buy two tps. It is a worthy investment, and you had 1.5k gold at that moment. At 17:16 there is a gank on your teammates near your bottom t1 tower in the river, and if you had a tp scroll you could blink in with epicenter and clear their team. But you are too nub to enforce the habit of carrying around a tp scroll. Instead, you have to saunter over to the side shop to buy one, reaching there ~10 seconds later than you could have had otherwise, resulting in losing a crucial teamfight.
At 20 minutes you blow another epi on an invisible brood. For some reason you dislike buying detection. You are not even using your slots for a damned tp scroll - sell that casual stout shield and get dust or sentries so that you can actually kill the broodmother. These kind of investments pay off themselves. In fact, because you wasted that epicenter on killing spiderlings, your next fight at mid lane 40 seconds later doesn't swing your way because all you could do was blink and burrowstrike. It is not worth it to keep using epi on a solo broodmother, especially when you have already tried it twice and both failed miserably. Apparently you are too nub to learn from your mistakes.
24 minutes and I have yet to see you carry a tp scroll on you....
That was enough for me. It is true that you were playing better than the rest of your team, but that was expected considering brood was terrible and fed you wave after wave of spiderlings, giving you a significant gold and exp advantage (coupled with the fact that lich left the lane and you were basically getting solo experience against brood). However, you could have very easily carried that game and made a more significant difference - I won't diss on your early item choices, which I felt were situationally relevant, although the Radiance was a costly and pointless investment. It is fully possible Valve gave you worse teammates than you, but your poor decision making and lack of good habits played a part in costing the game. You could have converted the early advantage you got from your lane into better team fights for your team, but you failed to do so.
Oh, and I took special care to make sure my choice of words mirrored yours. Don't get me wrong, I respect how you evaluate people's plays and argue in a rational manner, but sometimes it pays to look into a mirror.
tl;dr relentless plays like a 3500-4000 rating player
"He might have wasted 11k gold on crap items but does that matter? He still did as much damage as the best player from Radiant. And he did that while being dragged down by 4 feeders. Should he lose rating?"
I am not sure whether he should lose rating. But why not look at the 'tower damage' and claim he didnt do much about it? Isnt the goal of the game to get buildings too?
Why should the damage from the best player in radiant matter to the argument, if that damage cannot win the game?
Ofc, perhaps Relentless's point is that no player can win with his example team and heroes. In that case it IS unfair and he is right. But I wonder whether thats true.
@fagt - you bring your experience of "imbalanced games", i bring my own experience of "imbalanced games". i'm just playing along with your terrible logic. Since you experience games you feel are imbalanced, i'm just doing the same, except for one thing - winning them. 5300 rating matched with sub 50% win rate players and winning despite my team being behind by 22k exp. That is as relevant as your examples of brain dead retarded teammates, except you weren't competent enough to make a difference.
^ My terrible logic is when my teammates feed 0-5 as a carry on ez lane, supports farming woods, mid going for 2-11 score and telling he won... If you werent in these games you dont know shit then.
Telling you once more, maybe u're average, thats why matchmaking gives an average game for u - while I'm better than average, forced to lose some amount of games.
People tend to forget that dota is a team game sitting and farming in your lane does not win games. Taking kills and using those kills to take out building is what wins games. The brood fed him wave after wave after wave of spiderlings so it really is not surprising he had alot of gold.
5.3k solo, regularly matched with pros, average by their standards perhaps. Maybe you're secretly ranked 6k. But at my rating I already end up in Blue or Pink for solo queue 90% of the time, which some have postulated to be the position with the longest queue time - usually indicating that your rating is one of the hardest to match for at that time.
Everything happens for a reason. You are just showing your side of the story. Just like how Relentless claims his game was "unwinnable", but what really happened was that he made alot of basic mistakes and bad decisions. It just felt "unwinnable" even though it really wasn't. If I bothered to watch your games I'm sure I could tell you why some things happened. Blaming matchmaking for all these things is just immature and childish.
@lie
if you are better than avg you will proceed to get better than avg opponents and teammates. Logically if everyone is getting noobs on their team doesnt that also mean you are fighting noobs?
Sampson, so you gonna say that was a balanced game or what? I dont really get why to even open a mouth if you dont have any arguments to suggest, or any idea to describe.
Zenoth, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but these Valve numbers mean no shit. I've seen barealy 4k players pwning as hell and 5k players getting sf last pick and 0-10 score. You really think that if you get some number insert-any-number-here then u're good in this matchmaking? :P
Among my friends the MMR is very accurate about who is better than who.
^^ I'm really not surprised that people with 5k have an ego big enough to last pick unneeded carries because they are so pro they can make everyone win and not think about a little thing called team composition, in fact...is anyone actually surprised?
a 5k MM player is better than a 3k MM player it is as simple as that. Is a 4.9k MM player worse than a 5k MM player that is debatable
I m 4800 mmr solo queue and last game I had batrider 2-10-2 midle, 28 minuta no dagger. Had Ursa who want to farm bottom same as sf,so Sf,Ursa and Veno 3 lane bottom. Never seen smth like this before Sf DON`T WANT TO GO MID Ursa DON`t WANT TO GO WOOD holy crap lol.
^you realize you where playing broodmother right?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/466384826
tinker autolocks, calls carry, dies twice to solo offlane naix. opponents tryhard tiny wisp. tinker starts flaming supports, calls gg, noob team. qop loses mid to invoker, kotol dces and nobody wants to pause for him.
wtf volvo why match me with such noob?
doesn't matter, just smash their tri-lane apart, rotate and rape enemies everywhere, create space, carry game.
so what if you get bad players? chances are if you got bad teammates your opponents are equally bad. if you cant outplay your opponents then you don't have the right to complain about the system.
@ Zenoth You are right. I did not play a team game this time. Nearly every game I attempt to help my team at all costs. But this game I accepted the 6 min long match and picked sandking to kill spiders and stayed top and got radiance... eventually... all because I wanted to show exactly how bad my team really was without me.
I wanted to show just how massively they would lose if I was not constantly saving them like I do in my normal games. This game illustrates the absurd burden put on the top MMR player in bad matches. To win this game, maybe I could have picked something like storm spirit 92% win for me or Zues 78% win for me... soloed mid... maybe I could kill enemy feeders faster than my team fed. But that is not a good match.
In a good match all the players should be near equal skill. That was clearly not the case in this game. Please understand the point here is not to complain about my personal problems. I know there are a lot of things I could have done differently in this game. The point is to show how unfair the game was to the feeder players. They can't beat the people Valve placed them against. They had no chance at all.
A year ago I tried to make all kinds of excused and explanations for the bizzare matching situations "lie to me" and others were complaining about. I did not want to believe that Valve would do such a bad job on matching and refuse to fix it so I tried to rationalize. But long experience has proven that they really do make terrible matches sometimes and do not notice, do not care... have no intention of fixing it.
Again I quote from Valve's statement about its own evaluation of its matching process "It’s not critical if the metric misidentifies some edge cases (a game that it measures as close was actually a blowout), since we are typically are only concerned with the aggregate response " They DO NOT CARE if their metric sometimes is fantastically wrong because it eventually cancels out in wins and losses for large numbers of players.
I will get games where the other team has 2, 3 4 feeders against me and its so easy I could win while nearly asleep or drunk. I have also posted examples of such super easy wins in the past trying to illustrate the same point. This is not a problem that keeps my MMR down or winrate down... or something like that. The problem is some matches are bad and Valve will not even try to fix it.
@ relentless
You do have a point. The problem is that we don't know the MMR margins that the matchmaking system has to deal with. All players probably play at a level +-500 from their indicated rank, depending on picks, mood and the thousand other factors that subtly affect their performance which MM has no control over. Couple that with the fact that many players are selfish, and do not play to win but rather for their "fun", you should know full well that even if everyone on both teams have identical MMRs, the game can and will result in stomps very often. 3000 mmr players can sometimes carry 5000 mmr games, and 5000 mmr players will sometimes feed 3000 mmr games. Of course, these are as valve puts it, edge cases.
Honestly, I'm not sure that longer queue times for lesser margins will resolve these problems. Too many issues stem from the fact that human players vary too much in performance from hero to hero, game to game, situation to situation, lane to lane. Personally I find it easier to accept that matchmaking is mostly doing what it can, and that I will get idiots as teammates occasionally, just as how I will get really good players as teammates here and there.
I personally believe that you will have edge cases no matter what. Just as how matches between top teams will sometimes result in absurd stomps (remember quantic versus alliance, where you complimented loda's alchemist for adding spray early against an aggressive tri?), no mater how balanced games get it is not possible to acquire some form of metric which can reliably measure skill while accounting for fluctuations in performance due to the absurd number of variables involved. And as long as this metric can only provide a rough approximation, then matchmaking can only attempt to average out in the long run.
You are free to disagree, of course, but some discussion would be nice.
The question zenoth is would a 5k player won that relentless game with sand king?
For me the answer is no.
Can a 5k player win ALL this kind of games if they pick snowball heroes ?
For me the answer is yes.
Sampson, yes the opponents are USUALLY ( when matchmaking doesnt fail this hard ) igual as bad as your team, but if the opponent good player is playing a snowball kind of hero ( lets say bounty ) it will be easier for him to stomp your players than it will be for you to stomp the enemies bad players if you are playing something like crystal maiden.
Like vandal wrote on this forum some time ago would be nice to see a 5k player get a 3k player account and go up to 5k playing only support ( only solo queue ). That would be posible, but with a insane amount of games. In theory if you are a 5k player you should be able to make a 3k account go to 5 k in 10 games, but this is literally imposible by how the matchmaking works now.
Zenoth the game should create a 50 % probability of losing or winning for relentless skill level, so if he needs to play A LOT better to even have a little posibility of winning a game then something is wrong.
Edit: I think it can go from +-1000 mmr sometimes
My point is that the game is most likely creating a 50% probability for him to the best of its ability. However, it is doing this based on the current rating system, which cannot account for fluctuations in player performance. If you have 3/4 teammates playing below their usual level, while the enemy team is playing at their usual level, that alone will cause the game to look extremely skewed. In the long run, it will average out, but unfortunately just 1 player playing unusually bad can easily cause the whole game to go south, especially if he feeds a snowballer. This is not something that the matchmaking system can reliably account for.
Example: I play TA alot, over 70% win rate at 300 games. I can honestly say that I have won nearly all even matchups, even against competitive players. But there was this one game where, against a Pudge, despite laning well I ate a hook while Refract was off cooldown and died to him. With the advantage he got I died twice more in lane to him and he snowballed and raped my team. Any pub teammates I had that match would be complaining about how useless I was, braindead autistic retard goes mid with TA and loses to Pudge, and even if the MMR accounted for individual hero performance it wouldn't be able to account for such happenings. If one of them was someone like lie to me the match would probably be posted to dotabuff forums.
Now with 10 players and so many games played, it is inevitable that such games will happen in the long run. Can a system really try to accomodate such fluctuations? That is something you can try to answer yourself, before repeatedly blaming volvo and fat gaben.
why should a 3k MM account go from 3k to 5k in 10 games? dumb shit like that would ruin the system. Smurf accounts alrdy make it hard enough to deal with MM. Relentless himself said he threw the game so you can stop talking about the bullshit that valve forced a loss on him. Relentless thinks he is 800x better than he actually is, this also applies to a majority of the players
"If you have 3/4 teammates playing below their usual level, while the enemy team is playing at their usual level, that alone will cause the game to look extremely skewed."
The problem is by that logic i feel that its almost imposible to find a game where everyone on both teams are playing at their usual level. Plus if we are talking about your MMR the fact that one simple player on your team can make you lose points its pretty sad.
"Relentless himself said he threw the game so you can stop talking about the bullshit that valve forced a loss on him."
Ok so he lost points ( in theory he got worst at the game ) by still playing better than his teammates (even throwing) , if the best football player gets into the worst football team in the world his team is still going to lose (even if they are playing against bad teams too, because they are literally the worst ), but that makes him a bad player ?
I still think that individual performance is something too important to just ignore like this system does.
Btw does someone knows why some people can even get +0 points when they win ? that its a joke .....