"In HoN there is one queue, but if you are a team of 5 you can get only a team of 5 as your enemy."
This is certainly not the case now in Dota 2 and I would agree it would be an improvement.
I think you are mistaken Mapz0r. "you_got_fukt" example game with the 0-5 player "hi" shows that huge disparities in MMR do exist in one game. And I have seen plenty of Very High games were there were players that had to be below average pub skill (ie Silver, Bronze).
I think it matches the way my example describes, trying to match not just the average MMR, but the MMR of each player as well. And besides this the Matching algorithim can't stop you from queing with friends no where near your skill level.
If matching opperated on just the average MMR it would be like the system we had in Dotacash Tier 2 for setting teams. That resulted in large departures from 50% win for maybe 30% of players...15% many wins, 15% many loses. This is because (back to the theoretical example) The 2100 DBR player easily outplayed the 1520 guy mid, took almost every deny and lasthit (maybe FB at 2-3 min when bottling first rune) and then ganked side lanes. Meanwhile the lanes with 2 1520 players really could not easily dominate the 800 + 1700 lane beyond a little better lasthitting. Then the ganks show up and its over. 2100 DBR guy now roams the map destroying the other team for the next 10-15 min, item advantages become huge, towers go down...and your 800 DBR feeder doesn't feed much because his team is winning.
If the best player does not solo mid, he is very likely to lose the game because he does not level fast enough to control things. So he ends up solo mid all the time once he learns this.
That same dynamic (best player solo mid in solo que games, still tends to occur in Dota 2 but with diffrent results).
What happens in Dota 2, Valve matchmaking is very diffrent. The top players face each other and its very hard for one to gain a significant advantage. When they do and they go to try to deal with whatever happened on the side lanes its much later (often after level 6 mid, maybe 6+ min) and not easy to make a side lane win if it was losing. The result is with Dota 2 matchmaking the mid game becomes more important and 5 man team play dominates. So 5 man stack, even of not-so-skilled players are the only ones who can get far from 50%.
If that teamplay is not there the game is a coin-flip going to whichever feeder happend to feed less. This results in that "feeling" that the game is forced, not in your control. Either your feeders feed harder or they don't. You dont really determine the win as much with your own play.
Of course really you do individually have an impact, but its smaller than you would like and games often "feel" impossible because your feeders fed more.
As I said, i think mm is somewhat ok. There is only 1 problem. Skill gaps are crated 2 fast.
top 0.1% ppl, are dramaticly better then top 0.5% players, and 0.5% players dramaticly then top 1% etc... So system groups them together thinking its only small skill gap, but its huge gap.
System tosses me from page 1, to page 13. When i end page 13, its like entering another dimension of skill :D
no, i am page 1-15 player :D by totaly random decisions, according to mm :D I can end page 1 with same chance i can end page 15. i should sample where i lend in between :D
Who checks which page your game is on or do you tab out of your game to check it yourself?
How long does it take you to page through to page 15 searching to find out where you are?
It seems like a poor measure, the only thing I notice consistently is games with multiple pro-players on each team are the #1 spot on page 1.
As game is loading, you can start checking what page you are.
Takes 1 second per page... so in 30 secs you can check like first 20 pages for sure.
You just check games that have timer that are starting. And check team you are on. That way it really does take 1 sec per page to find yourself.
OP is a good player.
OP is right about that MM is bad.
I'm not sure if MM can be made much better because we do not know how it exactly works.
OP has serious attitude problems which attracts people who flame him.
OP is just raging, doing nothing constructive.
Leaving never ending qq-thread.
Why is there always 1 person who is just 10 fucking miles behind everyone else in the game in terms of skill. Its just so frustrating.
Thankfully my next game had an early abandon. We were meant to tri-lane with warlock, sven and tide. Except warlock leaves before the game starts. Anyway we pause for a few minutes. He doesn't come back, so we play. I have a tide, contesting my farm, no clue why, but he is doing it. And then, when I pick out a kill on KOTL, and get him down to 53 HP, BY MY SELF, and KOTL is running past Tide Hunter who finally caught up, I see he doesn't even fucking have Gush. LEVEL FUCKING 2, and NO GUSH. Of course KOTL gets away, that's the kind of allies MM is pairing me with, and its fucking amazing.
Is it really, that much to ask for people who even know what the fuck they are doing? I'm not asking for dendi, I'm asking for people who use their fucking BRAINS.
Oh wow, what an amazing fucking game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/148364152 4 feeders, 1 of them leaves. 10/10 game. And I was the one with the fucking delay! (played on US servers because aus was takes too long at this hour). The sad thing is, the enemies sucked shit too, its just my allies were even WORSE.
I didn't even farm much past the 12 or so minute mark and still have more CS than everyone in my team combined, thanks MM!
No one birds the chick until I fucking yell at them, none of them want to put any wards down, until our "semi-carry" slark decided too while tuskar and CW continued in their quest of being useful. And then of course slark went back on his way to farming butterfly, after his treads and PMS..I don't think he ever got there
Just look at that Prophet. He misses even Nature's Call. He summons less Treants than it supposed to several times. He does not micro them so they simply die. The least effective way of jungling I've ever seen. When he gets to level 6 he spams ulti. Brainless retard. Of course he feeds.
I think this was low priority pool already. Valve should fix MM to put noobs like this Prophet into lowlow priority pool.
Your gpm was high (second highest not the first as you said) because you used your ulti always when it was not on cooldown. That is bad. You missed Nature's call at least two times. That is bad. You fed. That is bad. I just showed you a match where you were the burden of the team.
Just tell me, why you were that bad in that match? Why do you think that you are soo good/1900 DBR/always carrying player when in this match you played like you described as morons.
The problem is that you don't accept the fact that you can make mistakes too, and ruin others' game. You always blame others, insult others, rage, qq. With this attitude you will not solve your problem. I recommend you to be more patient, understanding and your game experience will be much better. If you analyze your own mistakes you can be even better (2100-2300 DBR).
And about my games. Yes my highest hero damage is 18k. I am an average player always playing support. I never said I am sooooooo good as you. I enjoy the game and never make qq threads like you. I hope you will find your happiness in this game too. Good luck.
Spencer Pooty, you found one match out of like 50 where I wasnt so good? Not bad. Still, even in that match I was not the worst actually, if you think that sf and ns were any good or even better than I am you're a full retard.
LOL. So this is your "End of discussion". Then I have one last reply too. Do you want counter argument? OK.
First of all:
"I wasn't so good" is very nice way to say you were terribad. I know you will never say that because your ego does not allow it.
Here are some other bad games from you:
145206765
You bought Agha on the worst ASU hero. Gratz. And all your awful team mates had more k+a. Yes. You can play bad even when you are stomping.
148839278
Dagger WR. No boots. You played bad in a bad team.
There are some other no boots + dagger build later. That is bad.
146151224
Dagger NS. No comment.
146151224, 146151224, 140684164
Again you are going for Agha on Lion. Don't do it.
Another mistake is that you farm too much when you are not the main carry. This is because of your egoist carry mentality. You want all the kills, all the farm, all the glory. It is not bad. But if you play all random, you should accept your role and play accordingly. However there are some nice support play as well from you I must admit.
"Im right, your full argument was invalid then."
Haha. It seems that you are hurt. I hope one day you will understand that your qq-ing is not helping you.
This is my last reply because your egoist qq-ing attitude just don't seem to improve. You can be a good dota player and you can have problems with the MM system, but your attitude is just destructive and your acts does not help solving your problems. You can blame others and rage freely. I won't stop and bother you anymore. Have fun.
As you wanted to talk after end of discussion, why cant I? Dont be so stupid.
Anyways, blink was bought at the very and to avoid fountain gank. Argument is invalid.
Im a better lion than you as I was playing him when you didnt even know what wc3 is. Argument is invalid.
Dont try to make your smart statements about psychology, you dont even get that you are a newb (but your stats state this so clear), so you are more of egoist than I am.
Paying 4200 gold for:
+10 for all stats, 200 hp, 150 mana and
125/150/175 magic damage (no cd reduction, no range increase, 0/0/25 manadecrease)
This is good in your opinion. OK.
Go to playdota.com Game Strategy section, open a thread with a title: "I am 1900 DBR player and want to ask whether Agha Lion is good". There are a lot of 2000+ DBR diamond players who are better than you. I wonder what their opinion will be. Good luck.
Edit:
I just found some funny stats (you love stats and you call everyone newb with worse stats than yours):
The thing about your losing/winning streaks is described here, you can read the thread and especially posts by You_Got_Fukt. Better players got worse teams and vice versa. The thing is that your stats suck+win/lose streaks just prove it.
Exp is, for items not skill so it has sense to get it after each game.
Rating is hidden but if you perform good with hero you will do fine regardless of win/lose.
Hall of fame is useless :P
Hero performance bars are now useless, people like me were finding out bit 2 much about system with older performance bars :) so they removed it.
Report system is useless obviously. And it should be removed. Because now you hear REPORT REPORT each game. And it doesn't even work so this kids shouting that are just sounding pathetic.
Game dodging should be fixed by fixing mm system. Not by punishing dodgers.
You cant blame me not wanting to play page 10 plus game, or with 9 unknown retards, if i know i am gonna get 4 guys on team that have no clue about dota, vs enemy that has bit more then them.
"In HoN there is one queue, but if you are a team of 5 you can get only a team of 5 as your enemy."
This is certainly not the case now in Dota 2 and I would agree it would be an improvement.
I think you are mistaken Mapz0r. "you_got_fukt" example game with the 0-5 player "hi" shows that huge disparities in MMR do exist in one game. And I have seen plenty of Very High games were there were players that had to be below average pub skill (ie Silver, Bronze).
I think it matches the way my example describes, trying to match not just the average MMR, but the MMR of each player as well. And besides this the Matching algorithim can't stop you from queing with friends no where near your skill level.
If matching opperated on just the average MMR it would be like the system we had in Dotacash Tier 2 for setting teams. That resulted in large departures from 50% win for maybe 30% of players...15% many wins, 15% many loses. This is because (back to the theoretical example) The 2100 DBR player easily outplayed the 1520 guy mid, took almost every deny and lasthit (maybe FB at 2-3 min when bottling first rune) and then ganked side lanes. Meanwhile the lanes with 2 1520 players really could not easily dominate the 800 + 1700 lane beyond a little better lasthitting. Then the ganks show up and its over. 2100 DBR guy now roams the map destroying the other team for the next 10-15 min, item advantages become huge, towers go down...and your 800 DBR feeder doesn't feed much because his team is winning.
If the best player does not solo mid, he is very likely to lose the game because he does not level fast enough to control things. So he ends up solo mid all the time once he learns this.
That same dynamic (best player solo mid in solo que games, still tends to occur in Dota 2 but with diffrent results).
What happens in Dota 2, Valve matchmaking is very diffrent. The top players face each other and its very hard for one to gain a significant advantage. When they do and they go to try to deal with whatever happened on the side lanes its much later (often after level 6 mid, maybe 6+ min) and not easy to make a side lane win if it was losing. The result is with Dota 2 matchmaking the mid game becomes more important and 5 man team play dominates. So 5 man stack, even of not-so-skilled players are the only ones who can get far from 50%.
If that teamplay is not there the game is a coin-flip going to whichever feeder happend to feed less. This results in that "feeling" that the game is forced, not in your control. Either your feeders feed harder or they don't. You dont really determine the win as much with your own play.
Of course really you do individually have an impact, but its smaller than you would like and games often "feel" impossible because your feeders fed more.
As I said, i think mm is somewhat ok. There is only 1 problem. Skill gaps are crated 2 fast.
top 0.1% ppl, are dramaticly better then top 0.5% players, and 0.5% players dramaticly then top 1% etc... So system groups them together thinking its only small skill gap, but its huge gap.
System tosses me from page 1, to page 13. When i end page 13, its like entering another dimension of skill :D
^ are you rl page 1 player?
no, i am page 1-15 player :D by totaly random decisions, according to mm :D I can end page 1 with same chance i can end page 15. i should sample where i lend in between :D
Who checks which page your game is on or do you tab out of your game to check it yourself?
How long does it take you to page through to page 15 searching to find out where you are?
It seems like a poor measure, the only thing I notice consistently is games with multiple pro-players on each team are the #1 spot on page 1.
As game is loading, you can start checking what page you are.
Takes 1 second per page... so in 30 secs you can check like first 20 pages for sure.
You just check games that have timer that are starting. And check team you are on. That way it really does take 1 sec per page to find yourself.
hmm my computer sucks, takes 5 sec just to load the next page.
Got 2 shitty wannabes in the last game, was lost since they joined. Would like to punch Gaben in the face.
Again moaning? Little tryharder NS with dagger =D
Stfu already trash.
OP is a good player.
OP is right about that MM is bad.
I'm not sure if MM can be made much better because we do not know how it exactly works.
OP has serious attitude problems which attracts people who flame him.
OP is just raging, doing nothing constructive.
Leaving never ending qq-thread.
^ Stating that mm is not bad, though we dont even know how it works.
A poor retard.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/147822328
Best disruptor ever, for fuck sake.
Why is there always 1 person who is just 10 fucking miles behind everyone else in the game in terms of skill. Its just so frustrating.
Thankfully my next game had an early abandon. We were meant to tri-lane with warlock, sven and tide. Except warlock leaves before the game starts. Anyway we pause for a few minutes. He doesn't come back, so we play. I have a tide, contesting my farm, no clue why, but he is doing it. And then, when I pick out a kill on KOTL, and get him down to 53 HP, BY MY SELF, and KOTL is running past Tide Hunter who finally caught up, I see he doesn't even fucking have Gush. LEVEL FUCKING 2, and NO GUSH. Of course KOTL gets away, that's the kind of allies MM is pairing me with, and its fucking amazing.
Is it really, that much to ask for people who even know what the fuck they are doing? I'm not asking for dendi, I'm asking for people who use their fucking BRAINS.
Rape, so you really think this is a stomp? Have you ever had a bad game?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/148296924
Oh wow, what an amazing fucking game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/148364152
4 feeders, 1 of them leaves. 10/10 game. And I was the one with the fucking delay! (played on US servers because aus was takes too long at this hour). The sad thing is, the enemies sucked shit too, its just my allies were even WORSE.
I didn't even farm much past the 12 or so minute mark and still have more CS than everyone in my team combined, thanks MM!
No one birds the chick until I fucking yell at them, none of them want to put any wards down, until our "semi-carry" slark decided too while tuskar and CW continued in their quest of being useful. And then of course slark went back on his way to farming butterfly, after his treads and PMS..I don't think he ever got there
http://dotabuff.com/matches/148463964
you would have lost anyways, PL 2 much farm + kills
^ Sure that was a loss as they got 5 carries and one of em left. Besides, none of em knew how to even farm except sf.
i was 8-0 15 min and 3 of my teams were bad, fed horrible and no help at all
I've just seen this stomp:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/146729495
Just look at that Prophet. He misses even Nature's Call. He summons less Treants than it supposed to several times. He does not micro them so they simply die. The least effective way of jungling I've ever seen. When he gets to level 6 he spams ulti. Brainless retard. Of course he feeds.
I think this was low priority pool already. Valve should fix MM to put noobs like this Prophet into lowlow priority pool.
And still this prophet had the highest gpm and pushed more than the team itself.
Really newb, stop trying to flame me. You do suck.
PS And bet you suck as prophet too. http://dotabuff.com/matches/139491700 - mind your plays, shit.
PPS Nice highest hero damage btw - 18k :PPP Stop humilating urself.
I don't flame you. Noone would have ever noticed that my link was your match. Thank you for putting your fail in spot light.
In http://dotabuff.com/matches/146729495 you were the worst. I watched your game. I encourage everybody to watch it too.
Your gpm was high (second highest not the first as you said) because you used your ulti always when it was not on cooldown. That is bad. You missed Nature's call at least two times. That is bad. You fed. That is bad. I just showed you a match where you were the burden of the team.
Just tell me, why you were that bad in that match? Why do you think that you are soo good/1900 DBR/always carrying player when in this match you played like you described as morons.
The problem is that you don't accept the fact that you can make mistakes too, and ruin others' game. You always blame others, insult others, rage, qq. With this attitude you will not solve your problem. I recommend you to be more patient, understanding and your game experience will be much better. If you analyze your own mistakes you can be even better (2100-2300 DBR).
And about my games. Yes my highest hero damage is 18k. I am an average player always playing support. I never said I am sooooooo good as you. I enjoy the game and never make qq threads like you. I hope you will find your happiness in this game too. Good luck.
Always team up with some new players who always try to pick carry and go feed = =a
Spencer Pooty, you found one match out of like 50 where I wasnt so good? Not bad. Still, even in that match I was not the worst actually, if you think that sf and ns were any good or even better than I am you're a full retard.
End of dicsussion.
You have a huge ego. I hope you will achive your goal and these threads make you feel better.
End of discussion.
Good thing that u didnt find a counter-argument to "you found one match out of like 50 where I wasnt so good?"
Im right, your full argument was invalid then.
LOL. So this is your "End of discussion". Then I have one last reply too. Do you want counter argument? OK.
First of all:
"I wasn't so good" is very nice way to say you were terribad. I know you will never say that because your ego does not allow it.
Here are some other bad games from you:
145206765
You bought Agha on the worst ASU hero. Gratz. And all your awful team mates had more k+a. Yes. You can play bad even when you are stomping.
148839278
Dagger WR. No boots. You played bad in a bad team.
There are some other no boots + dagger build later. That is bad.
146151224
Dagger NS. No comment.
146151224, 146151224, 140684164
Again you are going for Agha on Lion. Don't do it.
Another mistake is that you farm too much when you are not the main carry. This is because of your egoist carry mentality. You want all the kills, all the farm, all the glory. It is not bad. But if you play all random, you should accept your role and play accordingly. However there are some nice support play as well from you I must admit.
"Im right, your full argument was invalid then."
Haha. It seems that you are hurt. I hope one day you will understand that your qq-ing is not helping you.
This is my last reply because your egoist qq-ing attitude just don't seem to improve. You can be a good dota player and you can have problems with the MM system, but your attitude is just destructive and your acts does not help solving your problems. You can blame others and rage freely. I won't stop and bother you anymore. Have fun.
Leaving this entertaining thread for a while ;)
nicely said
but you are wasting time with him
gg
As you wanted to talk after end of discussion, why cant I? Dont be so stupid.
Anyways, blink was bought at the very and to avoid fountain gank. Argument is invalid.
Im a better lion than you as I was playing him when you didnt even know what wc3 is. Argument is invalid.
Dont try to make your smart statements about psychology, you dont even get that you are a newb (but your stats state this so clear), so you are more of egoist than I am.
Really, dont be so stupid.
After one month you are still whining. Usually people would start getting the hints the problem is in them by now, but noooooooooo - not you.
Argumentum ad hominem at its best.
Paying 4200 gold for:
+10 for all stats, 200 hp, 150 mana and
125/150/175 magic damage (no cd reduction, no range increase, 0/0/25 manadecrease)
This is good in your opinion. OK.
Go to playdota.com Game Strategy section, open a thread with a title: "I am 1900 DBR player and want to ask whether Agha Lion is good". There are a lot of 2000+ DBR diamond players who are better than you. I wonder what their opinion will be. Good luck.
Edit:
I just found some funny stats (you love stats and you call everyone newb with worse stats than yours):
Spencer Pooty:
Longest winning streak: 10
Longest losing streak: 4
lie to me agen fagt:
Longest winning streak: 9
Longest losing streak: 8
I play for my team.
You play for yourself.
I am newb. But credit to my team. You are better (skillwise). But you destroy your teams morale too often.
The thing about your losing/winning streaks is described here, you can read the thread and especially posts by You_Got_Fukt. Better players got worse teams and vice versa. The thing is that your stats suck+win/lose streaks just prove it.
Try to handle the truth.
In the lion scepter game they had 3 support heroes and none of them had mek or pipe!!! I think he is in the right bracket :)
^ You playing ap only and still has like 2 kda average? Please trash, dont look at me.
lol
PS: cool nickname
got 70 wins, just had to play against 200+ win guys. Nice.
match maker and report system are epic sooo fckin goood
VALVE SUCKS DICK.
BIG DONKEY DICK.
FUCK THESE ASSHOLES.
I WON'T SPEND 1 CENT ON THIS SHIT GAME.
FUCK YOU GABE. YOUR DEVELOPMENT TEAM SUCKS BIG BLACK BALLS.
go play with 5 ppl stack noobs. dont complain other peoples or valve
Exp is, for items not skill so it has sense to get it after each game.
Rating is hidden but if you perform good with hero you will do fine regardless of win/lose.
Hall of fame is useless :P
Hero performance bars are now useless, people like me were finding out bit 2 much about system with older performance bars :) so they removed it.
Report system is useless obviously. And it should be removed. Because now you hear REPORT REPORT each game. And it doesn't even work so this kids shouting that are just sounding pathetic.
Game dodging should be fixed by fixing mm system. Not by punishing dodgers.
You cant blame me not wanting to play page 10 plus game, or with 9 unknown retards, if i know i am gonna get 4 guys on team that have no clue about dota, vs enemy that has bit more then them.
AGREED ^^^^
TOO BAD GABE AND THE REST OF THE DOTA 2 DEVELOPMENT TEAM IS RETARDED.
GG
Light, if everything so retarded, why not go play LoL or Zuma or smthing?
^ THIS EXACTLY.
Honestly, dota 2 development team is retarded and bad.
It's made for fucking newbies, like most of the idiots on this forum.
Esp the mods. Who delete my threads because I say bad words.
ROFL.
Retarded mods.
4 wins in a row, http://dotabuff.com/matches/151285889 newbs bat and sd incoming.