If both of them go their standart builds, on six slots they have ~equal chances of winning one-on-one fight.
If Spectre goes default build and Medusa picks BKB for exchange of some item, she'll win in ~90% cases.
If Spectre goes high-end items build (like Satanic and Abyssal Blade, which both are quite rarely seen on Spectre), she'll win in ~90% cases.
If Medusa goes Hex instead of BKB, then fight will be ~60% in Spectre's favor. Buying BKB on Spectre will solve the problem. Changing Hex for Refresher will pump Medusa's chances somewhere up to 80~90%, based on execution.
And this could go on veeeery long. 6 slotted Void could be easily killed, if he isn't the one who initiates first.
On-topic, my opinion is:
str: either Sven or DK
agi: Medusa
int: Silencer or Tinker
well all of OD's right click damage comes from his orb, because it's pure damage based on mana, but silencer's is based directly off Int, so if you get a BKB, chances are a Silencer will hit harder than the OD, because Silencer still gets 2 raw damage from the intel he steals
OD would still wreck before/after bkb is obtained/used, but silencer offers more dps when bkb is active with rightclicks, assuming he's stolen/built enough intelligence
That might be true but you need to think that OD will have forcestaff and hex plus double ulti, OD ulti is instantly and can easily do 1k damage late game, plus if he can hex the enemy carry before he bkbs the enemy carry is dead
str - Tiny, Sven...
Agi - it really depends, there are many good hardcarries (some situations) but i will consider the most that work the best are spectre, void, medusa and PL (PA, AM, Morph, sniper, GYRO also work)
INT - OD no complain, he literaly won every 65+ game! He rocks lategame we've seen it many many times.
I've murdered void lategame as WK several times, all you need is abyssal mjolnir and blademail, with mkb if he has butterfly and probably blink if he isnt a potato
btw zenoth i see that the only item that you have late game that gives you hp is skadi, if the enemy has enough magical pure or physycal damage with mkb what would you get that gives more hp ? I just dont feel comfortable with only skadi as hp
Well last time i played TB i was against a void, bfly doesnt work in chrono but i forgot that, the thing is that i baited a lot of chronos with illusions but he got the right one 2 times, he dropped my hp from 2,5k to 0 before chrono ended ( actually i had like 300 hp when chrono ended but he bashed me )
I saw a TB getting solo killed by tinker too, hex eblade dagon 5. (The poor guy didnt even got to use bkb )
I just think I need more hp or something to be more comfortable with the hero
there are some lineups that tb is really bad against, and some heroes which would force me to buy bkbs against
against SA I will definitely buy a BKB early, probably even before Skadi
against lineups with 2 cores that can clear illusions easily when farmed (e.g. Luna, OD, Timber) and supports who are a pain in the ass towards illusions (Sand King, Lion, etc) I will go for a more fighting oriented build, but usually most lineups are weird amalgamations of random carries and supports not equipped to deal with TB's split pushing
BACK TO TOPIC
Silencer can be really disgusting when played as a carry, in terms of overall damage + utility I think he might be one of the hardest INT carries overall
Int-wise, a six-slotted Windrunner can be pretty scary late-game. She definitely isn't as hard as OD or Silencer, but damn, focus fire can be devastating with an agha.
@Raven http://dotabuff.com/matches/696784149 Heaviest game of my life. That wasn't even 6 slotted, still needed to finish heart and butterfly and couldn't afford a slot for bkb just because my team couldn't do damage. The game ended with me buying back and BoT into enemy base and focus fire the ancient as they go for a gg push.
Seems like many disagree that void is the hardest carry, and I wonder why.
He has an AoE 5 second bkb-penetrating stun. And I've seen and experimented enough comebacks made by void, smashing my monitor as he 4-shots me and I can't do shit about it, if chrono didn't penetrate magic immunity I could've won so many disappointing games.
Bkb penetrating stun which also allow him to hit your allies and if doesn't placed correctly, the whole team fight is fucked even though your team is winning?
Before the buff void is just another underdog carry who never got picked, especially when carries within the same class could perform better job in teamfight such as medusa and spectre.
Str: I would say Sven or CK. Didn't see a Tiny who would (equally farmed) outcarried those 2 yet. And dont forget about WK and Doom.
Agi - Void, Spectre or Medusa.
Int: OD, Invoker or Tinker.
Can't really say who is harder carry between those. It mostly depends of a player who plays them and the item build he uses.
@ Yfay @Traxax you assume a wrong placed chrono would fuck the game. Well if course, but a bad timed haunt, god's strength or stone gaze could potentially ruin the game too. I know what you mean, that a bad player can trap his team inside chrono and throw the game, bit every other carry with a big ultimate can waste it and throw the game.
That silencer as a lategame carry comments are getting more and more stupid.
So Legion is the hardest carry becouse he can buff damage indefinately?
Be real guys, be real.
There are reasons, why Silencer is legit end-game carry and why Legion is not. Even with 500 extra damage, Legion can't fight 6-slotted Medusa or Void. Aside from damage and one disable she doesn't have much to offer in a teamfight. Silencer, on the other hand, has freaking Global Silence, 5 seconds silence+disarm AND lot of damage.
There's no consensus because it's too situatonal and people have different definitions like 1v1 who will win vs 5v5 who will win. But I would like to throw out some votes for:
Lycan - maybe not the strongest team fighter but 1v1 with a necro 3 and those wolves plus a vlads, abysal, ac, heart, bot, he can man fight most other carries.
Slardar - get enough IAS and he will perma bash most carries, he's worse than void at that imo, plus all his shit goes through magic immunity.
Wraith king - Just takes so freakin long to kill if you don't mana drain him. Comes online sooner than Sven imo. Has scalable late game with % based hp steal and crit.
Troll is not a hard carry. He works better as a buffer to other hard carries and a pusher. Sure he can man fight 1v1 with bashes but too squishy once ult/satanic/bkb are on cooldown.
Agi is just pick your poison, void, spec, dusa, gyro, luna, sniper, all do tremendous amounts of damage. Doesn't really matter which one you pick, just farm your ass off.
Int carries are weird, most need to snowball, most output tons of dmg but are still really squishy. Like silencer buffed up will do tons of orb dmg but still die really fast to a 6 slotted void if he focuses him or any bashing hero.
Str: CK(just try it, six slotted he melts anyone) and Tiny
Agi:it depends, but the strongest are: void, spectre, dusa, druid
Int: 1v1, tinker no doubt, 1 v5 OD
Dacheat- Medusa carry harder than pl, although pl is also strong hard carry, just look my last dusa game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/723519869 i outcarry 6 slotted pl that game. I also think that Spectre/Medusa are two equally hardest carry in game, also Medusa or Spectre carry harder than anti mage and void combined, coz am/void are realy weak in late game compare to unkillable tanks carrys like spectre/dusa.
EG.Alliso- That retard asshole noob scrub piece of shit idiot still talking lol.
I dont think void is that strong in late game, for exampe in this game we outcarried full farmed void and mirana with farmed wk and necro:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/725425566
@X6 until he falls behind in lategame.
Hardest Int ever will be come soon, Techies
Guys, a silencer with 100 int stolen hits way less than a 6 slotted OD, OD does close to 500 pure damage per ORB late game
^bkb. Focus the bitch. Problem solved.
Pudge
OD
TB
One vs one battles are very, very retarded.
Let's pick my beloved Medusa and Spectre.
If both of them go their standart builds, on six slots they have ~equal chances of winning one-on-one fight.
If Spectre goes default build and Medusa picks BKB for exchange of some item, she'll win in ~90% cases.
If Spectre goes high-end items build (like Satanic and Abyssal Blade, which both are quite rarely seen on Spectre), she'll win in ~90% cases.
If Medusa goes Hex instead of BKB, then fight will be ~60% in Spectre's favor. Buying BKB on Spectre will solve the problem. Changing Hex for Refresher will pump Medusa's chances somewhere up to 80~90%, based on execution.
And this could go on veeeery long. 6 slotted Void could be easily killed, if he isn't the one who initiates first.
On-topic, my opinion is:
str: either Sven or DK
agi: Medusa
int: Silencer or Tinker
STR - def. include CK. literally unkillable when 6slotted and does comaparable DPS to a Void
Agi - Spectre/Medusa/void
Int - OD or Tinker
Why would you say that silencer can carry harder than OD ? Remenber that OD ulti late game with refresher will take down 2 or 3 people.
Forcestaff into hex etc
Like OD is not agi guys is int :P silencer is going to need 200 int stolen to take down OD as a carry
Hardest Str carry is Pudge.
Get 500 str from kills, proceed to build Assault Cuirass, Deadalus, Abyssal Blade, BKB and rek. EZ
^and 7k hp :P
well all of OD's right click damage comes from his orb, because it's pure damage based on mana, but silencer's is based directly off Int, so if you get a BKB, chances are a Silencer will hit harder than the OD, because Silencer still gets 2 raw damage from the intel he steals
OD would still wreck before/after bkb is obtained/used, but silencer offers more dps when bkb is active with rightclicks, assuming he's stolen/built enough intelligence
That might be true but you need to think that OD will have forcestaff and hex plus double ulti, OD ulti is instantly and can easily do 1k damage late game, plus if he can hex the enemy carry before he bkbs the enemy carry is dead
str - Tiny, Sven...
Agi - it really depends, there are many good hardcarries (some situations) but i will consider the most that work the best are spectre, void, medusa and PL (PA, AM, Morph, sniper, GYRO also work)
INT - OD no complain, he literaly won every 65+ game! He rocks lategame we've seen it many many times.
Tiny
Medusa
OD
carry is not about killing heroes
TB THE BEST :D
man i wish there was more ways of instakilling illusions :P
I've murdered void lategame as WK several times, all you need is abyssal mjolnir and blademail, with mkb if he has butterfly and probably blink if he isnt a potato
lion is a pain in the ass but his reaction is priceless when he manadrains the 26th illusion and it doesn't pop
btw zenoth i see that the only item that you have late game that gives you hp is skadi, if the enemy has enough magical pure or physycal damage with mkb what would you get that gives more hp ? I just dont feel comfortable with only skadi as hp
Manta also gives HP. Butterfly gives ton of effective HP. Enemy team usually can afford only one MKB, so it doesn't counter evasion that much.
Well last time i played TB i was against a void, bfly doesnt work in chrono but i forgot that, the thing is that i baited a lot of chronos with illusions but he got the right one 2 times, he dropped my hp from 2,5k to 0 before chrono ended ( actually i had like 300 hp when chrono ended but he bashed me )
I saw a TB getting solo killed by tinker too, hex eblade dagon 5. (The poor guy didnt even got to use bkb )
I just think I need more hp or something to be more comfortable with the hero
there are some lineups that tb is really bad against, and some heroes which would force me to buy bkbs against
against SA I will definitely buy a BKB early, probably even before Skadi
against lineups with 2 cores that can clear illusions easily when farmed (e.g. Luna, OD, Timber) and supports who are a pain in the ass towards illusions (Sand King, Lion, etc) I will go for a more fighting oriented build, but usually most lineups are weird amalgamations of random carries and supports not equipped to deal with TB's split pushing
BACK TO TOPIC
Silencer can be really disgusting when played as a carry, in terms of overall damage + utility I think he might be one of the hardest INT carries overall
str - sven (undoubtedly)
agi - void\spectre
int - silencer\tinker\od dont really know
Hardest INT carry, Skywarth! lol I almost shit my pants at that comment.
AGI: Depends on the enemy. I say spectre because she is good vs all other carries.
Str: Tony, CK gets rekt by a cleave. Sven gets kited forever and has downtime
Int: OD can shit on anyother carry when their bkb wears off
Late tinker is also a beast
WAIFURUNNER AWESOME
Tony. Nuff said.
Int-wise, a six-slotted Windrunner can be pretty scary late-game. She definitely isn't as hard as OD or Silencer, but damn, focus fire can be devastating with an agha.
Oh its true i forgot windrunner
What about Lone Druid? It's pretty rare to see twelve slots fully in action, but DAMN.
@Raven http://dotabuff.com/matches/696784149 Heaviest game of my life. That wasn't even 6 slotted, still needed to finish heart and butterfly and couldn't afford a slot for bkb just because my team couldn't do damage. The game ended with me buying back and BoT into enemy base and focus fire the ancient as they go for a gg push.
Seems like many disagree that void is the hardest carry, and I wonder why.
He has an AoE 5 second bkb-penetrating stun. And I've seen and experimented enough comebacks made by void, smashing my monitor as he 4-shots me and I can't do shit about it, if chrono didn't penetrate magic immunity I could've won so many disappointing games.
And he just got buffed. u wot icefrog
Bkb penetrating stun which also allow him to hit your allies and if doesn't placed correctly, the whole team fight is fucked even though your team is winning?
Before the buff void is just another underdog carry who never got picked, especially when carries within the same class could perform better job in teamfight such as medusa and spectre.
these ''who is the hardest carry'' threads never end conclusive... i wonder why!
And a shitty chrono can lose you the game
Str: I would say Sven or CK. Didn't see a Tiny who would (equally farmed) outcarried those 2 yet. And dont forget about WK and Doom.
Agi - Void, Spectre or Medusa.
Int: OD, Invoker or Tinker.
Can't really say who is harder carry between those. It mostly depends of a player who plays them and the item build he uses.
tiny outcarries anyone dude that passive is sick
^
ranged by full slotted OD will be ez problem, remember 300-500 pure damage
I feel Like a 6 Slotted Wraith King stands toe to toe with a lot of traditional carries like void spec and dusa
as far As Str heros go that is
Wk is a beast with the right build, i totally agree.
@ Yfay @Traxax you assume a wrong placed chrono would fuck the game. Well if course, but a bad timed haunt, god's strength or stone gaze could potentially ruin the game too. I know what you mean, that a bad player can trap his team inside chrono and throw the game, bit every other carry with a big ultimate can waste it and throw the game.
str - axe
agi - spectre
int - sky/storm
Strength: Chaos Knight
Agility: Phantom Lancer
Intelligence: Skywrath Mage (Silencer if it's super late game and he's stolen a ton of Intelligence)
That silencer as a lategame carry comments are getting more and more stupid.
So Legion is the hardest carry becouse he can buff damage indefinately?
Be real guys, be real.
There are reasons, why Silencer is legit end-game carry and why Legion is not. Even with 500 extra damage, Legion can't fight 6-slotted Medusa or Void. Aside from damage and one disable she doesn't have much to offer in a teamfight. Silencer, on the other hand, has freaking Global Silence, 5 seconds silence+disarm AND lot of damage.
STR: Sven, Tiny, WK
AGI: Spectre, Void, PL
INT: OD, Tinker, Silencer
There's no consensus because it's too situatonal and people have different definitions like 1v1 who will win vs 5v5 who will win. But I would like to throw out some votes for:
Lycan - maybe not the strongest team fighter but 1v1 with a necro 3 and those wolves plus a vlads, abysal, ac, heart, bot, he can man fight most other carries.
Slardar - get enough IAS and he will perma bash most carries, he's worse than void at that imo, plus all his shit goes through magic immunity.
Wraith king - Just takes so freakin long to kill if you don't mana drain him. Comes online sooner than Sven imo. Has scalable late game with % based hp steal and crit.
Troll is not a hard carry. He works better as a buffer to other hard carries and a pusher. Sure he can man fight 1v1 with bashes but too squishy once ult/satanic/bkb are on cooldown.
Agi is just pick your poison, void, spec, dusa, gyro, luna, sniper, all do tremendous amounts of damage. Doesn't really matter which one you pick, just farm your ass off.
Int carries are weird, most need to snowball, most output tons of dmg but are still really squishy. Like silencer buffed up will do tons of orb dmg but still die really fast to a 6 slotted void if he focuses him or any bashing hero.
Str: CK(just try it, six slotted he melts anyone) and Tiny
Agi:it depends, but the strongest are: void, spectre, dusa, druid
Int: 1v1, tinker no doubt, 1 v5 OD
what should i learn from you, you fucking autist cunt necroretard picker OP
Dacheat- Medusa carry harder than pl, although pl is also strong hard carry, just look my last dusa game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/723519869 i outcarry 6 slotted pl that game. I also think that Spectre/Medusa are two equally hardest carry in game, also Medusa or Spectre carry harder than anti mage and void combined, coz am/void are realy weak in late game compare to unkillable tanks carrys like spectre/dusa.
EG.Alliso- That retard asshole noob scrub piece of shit idiot still talking lol.
I dont think void is that strong in late game, for exampe in this game we outcarried full farmed void and mirana with farmed wk and necro:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/725425566