General Discussionfast end vs a lategame line up

i wonder why would u need spectre,just take a mid game carry and shit on them,bs rad + mijonlir would do the job prefectly.

After you mentioned that it makes totaly sense. Now i feel stupid because i was the one who told him to pick a harder carry because we do not have an other one. But stil thanks a lot!

I guess at this more low/ noncoordinated rating its always easier to pick a little bit better late game then the enemie team because of the lack of teamplay or skill.

Dude, you are in normal skill bracket, your games never end before 40-50minute mark, always go for late game, everyone is farming jungle and chilling nobody pushes shit until they are 6th sloted.

You have to push them back and then choke out their jungle so none of them are getting farm. AM, morph and pl can't all farm from their base. Invoker needs to be the pusher/tower hitter with his forge spirits. Your team doesn't scale great at right click but sky with aghs does a crap ton of damage, as does tide with aghs.

I think more the issue is just picks. You lack a lot of diables vs an AM and morph. Sky silence is pretty good, but tide only has ult, rubick lift is meh, invoker doesn't really have stuns per say. You needed like another carry with a stun probably over spec. And there aren't many spells for rubick to steal. He can't get anything good off AM or pl, pretty much just pugna and then the ults of morph and kunkka.

Dude as a rule of thumb if u saw them picking two heros that are mostly played as pos1,just pick fast pushers and punish them for being greedy.

@ Dire Wolf
pushing back and choke the jungle is already a big coordination problem at this rating. Sky and Rubik were more like " i am there but only to die figures^^" they couldnt be realy effective in this chaotic fights. Sky got onehitted by pugna since midgame and noone knew why^^ i will try aghs on tide tho! i went manaboots > blink > shivas (vs pl) > ac (vs their rightclick line up)

Rubik was firstpick, maybe thats not that great. I wanted to pick Dragon Knight first because i like to play him and have a high winrating with him. He is a carry, has a great stun and has aoe autoattack vs pl. But i went tide because i wanted to give my team a better teamfight and thought ravage would be strong, but it never came to this classic 5on5 scenarios or at least good ravage spots.
You wrote down a lot of nice thought and i thank you for that! :)

@ Harold

I have to say when i played mad ( my teammates do so much mistakes and dont care etc) then you are right 99% of the games only end very late and people will not teamplay at all.

But i discovered when you are nice to your teammates even when you see them fucking up, then they are more willing to devot themself for the greater good and they WILL push and teamfight even early game. ( like in the game i mentioned, everyone was trying to do as good for the team as possible and we pushed/played as team, even tho it was low or normal skill bracket)

I would like to point out something very obvious here and other people have pointed it out in subtle way but Tide was a bad choice. I will elaborate a little here. They have three pos1 cores and two of them are very slippery and all they want is to split push out of which you should have at least seen 2 of them before your team had all the picks. When you see something like this happen you need to pick heroes which can pressure the enemy safe lane heavily. Tide is a defensive offlane pick while you guys needed something very offensive like bristle/axe/underlord/beastmaster who can shit on the cores farm early in the game. Killing the cores is nice but if they can farm even when you are in the lane and have no fear is when this multiple pos1 strat works. If you have a skywrath supporting you you can land multiple kills and harass them so much they would probably abandon if either kunnka or Pugna does not come to help. Which would mean space for your cores to farm. Even Lycan would have worked here.

D3athKnight
I see your point and you are probably right. First i want to say that i am pretty sure that the enemie team did not picked the multi p1 strat on purpose but only because usually everyone wants to be the p1. Most of the time it does not result in splittpush but in all carrys farming woods. Second, i knew that i am going to start solo offlane. I got zoned from start by a kunkka and a pugna, the kunkka rotated afterwards. I dont see how i can challenge that solo even if i pick bb ( stil zoned and fast burned by am) or a solo axe/beastmaster/ul vs a tri.
A duo lane 2-1-2 would have worked far better i guess. Thats what you said anyway (pressure as hard).

In the end i just want to say that at this rating people pick what they want to play, a lot of the time they pick something to destroy the game if they dont like other picks. Something like, we go 3 p1 splittpush, or how to counter it is not the way of thoughts here. It just happens by accident. So i guess what i needed to do here is for example pick a dk or lycan , tell my sky to come with me and play 2-1-2. Actually, i thinking right now, to be honest, how did the solo morph offlane got farm vs a tri and how could the pl get so fat mid vs a invoker. I dont know, something went wrong here but at least i am smarter then before, thanks for that!

You have an early game lineup yes
But you don't have a lineup that can push towers, so it really doesn't matter
That being said, it was winnable for sure, but you guys need to make sure all waves are pushed always, and sky really needs to take the team on his back in terms of pickoffs

I can't recall how many games I won only by telling everyone to stay safe, shove waves, and waiting for pickoffs

Dude, you are in normal skill bracket, your games never end before 40-50minute mark, always go for late game, everyone is farming jungle and chilling nobody pushes shit until they are 6th sloted.

Invoker and spec also so greedy themselves. Kinda hard to end early with those heroes unless y'all commit to early ending meaning build the relevant items

Just spam wr for offlane and pos 4! You have plenty experience with her abuse it before the nerf hammer come

invoker is the best hero in late game, his potential is almost equal as 2x am , morph, pl , or any hero in game, so theoricly you are the late game line up bro, ( no need to mention spectre i guess ), the problem is the 2k invoker lol. you dont rly have that much chances to win a game doesnt matter early or later when you have an invoker in team and enemy cores are not that much high skill heroes to at least be useful in game. ( talking about 2k-3k-4k, bracket )

^haha i just want to write something like this.

invoker basically can win against multiple carry even in late (multiple carry means less stun)

same with void. in theory this hero can win you the game with a single good chrono no matter how late or early the game is.

in practice in lower mmrs you just loose at all stages of the game because the void chronos half of his own team or nothing at all, or he gets good chronos but doesnt buy bkb and just gets glimpsed out of the chrono

enigma is similiar.

I am a lowskill trashcan, yet I can't quite fathom how you don't see the obvious.

Their lineup is turbo-terrible, but so is yours.
You have poor pushing potential (only Invoker with forges can hit towers decently in your team) and you have poor lockdown (Ravage with a giant cd, Telekinesis is a crap disable with no damage).
All of that vs slippery cores likes PL/AM/Morph, who can get hit by Ravage in mid-game and just run away from you in fights.

You have no truly aggressive heroes like Bara/Stalker/Slardar/Brew, no sieging heroes like Luna/CK/Beast/Pugna, no 20 min. shitstompers like Brood/Meepo, no pushing powerhouses like Lycan/Shaman/Furion. Lack of CC, lack of tower damage, lack of everything necessary to end fast.

You have a team of passive numbnut heroes vs a team of even more passive numbnut heroes, but with ton of escapes.
Guess the issue.

Something like Luna-SD-Beastmaster-Bara-DK would've won that game easily.
Or putting Brood mid/offlane and whatever 4 other other heroes. Or Meepo mid.
Or something like Seeker-Rhasta-Brew-Stalker-Viper.

You could construct tons of viable lineups vs their garbage, which would've ended this really fast, but instead, you have a passive core, a passive offlane hero with a giant cd ulti and two supports with 1 disable with no damage.

U was right about the spectre the only good pick u had was spectre in fact but ure supports are useless in this game u don't have enough disables vs them

Btw enemy lineup ain't a "lategame line up", but a "we have brain damage" kind of lineup.

It was a mistake to try to take every outer tower first. Just push top and mid, leave the enemy towers on your short lane. This is a typical dead lane scenario.

Given you had spectre as well, he can limit the am's ability to split push. Chasing around the am on your other heroes just buys them time.Instead, you want the be ganking kunka and pugna, as they are the ones stopping you moving to high ground. Even if you don't rax, killing one of them is enough to chip at the base tower.

Thank you guys for all your advice. Mostly it feels like that more basic and simple stuff play a decisive role in this 2,5k mmr bracket.
To the guys who said spam p4, because i have plenty exp on her :

There is no other hero i have such exp yes, and no other hero i can play that good as wr. No other hero i played so many times with. I have a 47,7 winrating with her. Basically every hero i have not even the sligtest idea of is A LOT of easier to win. And i have no idea why. Its always the same. If i play semi sup wr, i end up like 5 0 10 until midgame, and because i helped so much, i basicaly stand there without farm and cant do shit in the lategame, or am at least not realy that much critical as a carry or farmed carry and we almost always lose there.

I am able to land realy good powershits, even predictive blind once , in basicaly every game, my shackels are on target, mostly i am able to be patient and catch to heroes all together with it. I build my items dependend on my position with wr, my farm and what is needed vs the enemie line up. I Swear to god that i am 100x better with her then any other hero.

Please let me tell you a short experience i had my last game. Slark / Silencer - Invo - Doom / Wr

I am wr. I tell em that i play semi sup and i start with a ward offlane. Doom asks if i can stay there for the first 2 min. Sure! I did and we got the lane domination. Suddenly i got flamed by the Silencer , OMFG WR come top REPORTED. After 2min i run from offlane to midlane and we killed the monkey king, i landed all my spells, tanked the tower and after the the kill was secured i went back. Invoker probably had no idea how to lose aggro on his own creeps and IMIDIENTLY he starts to jump on the flametrain even if he got the kill cause of my gang he says: omfg wr why dont tank report.
At min 2:30 i went top and we got 2 kills. I tried to pull the savelane but silencer interupted it and slark and silencer flamed me. After silencer left the lane 2min later i tried to pull again. Slark came out of his safelane to my pull camp interupted it and died 30sec later, and said report wr. At this point i am 2 0 4 bought 2 wards ganked and tried everything i could. Silencer asking me after 5min why i pick wr roam when i dont move my ass. I explain to him that i got a kill or secured a kill after 3min at every single lane. Doesnt matter what i do or what i say, in this particular game my teammates decided to report me. Since i dont have any other reports at my acc at this point it does not bother me that much but at that moment i totaly pissed me of.

The enemie Lich asked, why report wr, after i explained, he was understanding and in the end commented me probably cause of solidarity.

With the help of that little story i just want to show that picking wr in this rating is realy a deathsentence. No matter what you do in the end its not useful or you are the one to blame.

When i decied to pick dragon knight no matter what line up, no teamplay, no communications no nothing, without wards whole game, i easly can win 2/3 of my games even if i cant play this hero as good as wr.

So what now ;)

I just want to add, that playing wr mid in this rating is a much higher success to win, at least for me. I can win my lane, gang very early on and take the lead from there. With the mid posi wr i am able to get my farm toegether and snowball which leads to a much much higher winrating but stil much harder then a lot of other heroes.