No ive seen fast bkb after lance into butterfly more. Early pike isnt something sf wants, he needs mobility and dmg, and pike upgrade is only mobility.
Manta depends largely on your build I believe. For example if for some reason you are going max DPS BoTs --> Deso --> Daedalus then Manta isn't a logical build-up, since your illusions get nothing. Better build BKB to ensure you actually get to dish out DPS. However if you go Treads --> SnY --> Skadi then Manta is a good idea. The illusions benefit largely from the stats, and can actually push lanes well or take that support down to 1/4th HP, not to mention the dispel/juke opportunities.
Lmao this guy actually reccomend a deso. I would go for butter most of the game because i just love the item
Laying out scenarios and recommending are two very different actions. Learn to understand before you reply.
However I do find Desolator on SF very strong especially on those cheeky Drow line-ups when Luna is banned.
The reason Desolator wasn't picked up that much anyways was because it couldn't stack with Skadi which is a very strong kiting and stat item he frequently picked up lategame, HotD lifesteal, and the reason that SF could dish out enough magical and physical dmg to the point Deso would be overkill.
Skadi slow isn't a UAM now, HotD no longer gives life steal, and now small skirmishes for lanes and fast-paced teamfights for towers is the meta, which means you will really be using that Desolator to hit people and towers rather than just AFK farming.
Ofcourse Desolator is still a risky pickup but if you have a defensive support/no Space Cow on enemy team/imba positioning skills it really is worth it. It'll let you knock on the enemy high ground 20 mins into the game.
The kind of a high risk/high reward item when opposed to something like a Euls/SnY which are safe go-to items.
You misunderstood a lot of things but i wont judge it becuase im too lazy to criticize it. Just think this. When would you buy deso? Usually after SE or pike you buy bkb then you buy butter which gives a lot more damage and tb. Even diffu is better because of you always need int.
Just classic Tread SE BKB Pike Butterfly/Daedalus, nothing can go too wrong with that
Deso is amazing for super fast win oriented playstyle
Think about something like slardar dazzle SF kind of bullshit with -40 armor with SF two shotting people left and right
This is why I said that it all depends on the build. If you want early push because your SF is more of a pos 2 ie buying time for your pos 1 to come online, then Deso is an okay pickup because you aren't supposed to be taking the game late.
The build you described is more of a carry-oriented SF, where in the lineup he is the central damage dealer. Tell me, where are you going to get the gold for that Butterfly? You go mid and lay dormant for 20 minutes because you are farming for a 5k item after Pike and SE? Who is going to hold the fort down while your pos 1 farms? You and your Quarterstaff? Meanwhile if you farm 5 minutes for a 3k gold item and ACTUALLY apply pressure to the map you are making space for your pos 1 to farm safely or just group up and take all their outer towers.
What would be more effective? An SF with a Pike, SE, and BKB with a Quarterstaff and Tali of Evasion, or an SF also with a Pike, SE, BKB but with a Desolator?
In the end it is about the build and lineup, and I believe we are both right, no need for the condescending tone.
Open your mind and know that there is no cookie cutter build for any hero, only optimal items each game.
because you need mobility and dmg, you are ok to skip the mobility part completely? 
sf needs to fight early, and its surely better to fight with treads-aquila-pike than it is to fight with treads-aquila-lance and a half of your bkb
plus, who the hell buys bkb pre-20 minutes....
if you dont have a pike, you die and you miss requiems xD
but yeah i think you almost always buy shadow blade in pubs.
Who the fuck misses Requiems? Its AOE is large and I don't think anything short of a Weaver Shukuchi/Centaur ult/blinks/instant transpo will be able to let you escape if you are in the vicinity when the Requiem pops.
And why would you pop Requiem if you don't see anyone in your screen in the first place???
imagine you are on the radiant middle high ground. clash happens at river. would you rather requiem on the high ground, or use pike to get to the river immediately and requiem there?
Hmm I would want to Requiem on the high ground because I know every enemy hero within range will have their physical damage reduced even through BKB, and I know Forcing directly into a teamfight is not advisable because after all I'm an SF who is squishy, better play safe and just apply the debuff which also slows, the damage is just a bonus now. Even if I Pike successfully I might get interrupted or CC'd, which makes my Pike detrimental.
After that I Raze as many people as I can and right click from the safety of the high ground, because they still have a space to cross to because I'm safe in the high ground near my tower, and not in the thick of the fight.
What would you do?
idk its just example. i saw this in a pro match, it was ~15-20 mins, sf used pike to requiem in the river wiping enemy team and winning the fight.
Well that is because they had all the information on a silver platter. What did you give me? A vague description of a fight with no mention of enemy nor allied heroes whatsoever, just a scenario in which I am in highground while they are clashing in the river. What did you expect me to think?
yes but if you have already 1 or 2 invis heroes in your team then its not good on him cuz there will be lots of sentries and wards for you
yea youre right and there is no wrong answer. and there might be many cases when its better to requiem on the high ground.
but still, if you dont build a pike early, you dont even have the opportunity to potentially make this game-winning play.
That is why presenting scenarios to support an argument is stupid. ANYTHING given with the perfect scenario is good.
Okay so I see this Shallow Grave'd 2000 GPM Alchemist without buyback is TPing in front of my face, and I'm the only one left to kill him because his HP is at at the Shallow Grave border and his ult just finished, but he has BKB on. If I kill him we win because we have strong push and the enemy team doesn't have any counter push. Wouldn't you say having a Basher in this scenario is good? Hence, SF's should have this item so that they can stun magic immune targets.
except that the chance, that you will need to use pike in order to reposition yourself in the fight, is incomparably greater than your scenario happening. and pike is a core item on him in most cases anyway.
so yea ur argument isnt really viable, not like this
Who is to say that needing to cancel channeling actions as SF is not important as positioning? SF lacks disables AND mobility, therefore both our arguments hold the same merit because we cannot measure the importance of one asset to another because of the fickleness of scenarios.
Wouldnt it be better to get mkb in that scenario( the alch one). Also if you want early push build i think diffusal is better since it solve your mobility a lot. I dont deny that deso is bad but you can have a lot of good item in that price range. However deso have a very very small power spike by the time you get se bkb and pike.
Well maybe I want to capitalize on that power spike because at that time my Luna is also online so we can now finish the game together? Man it's always about what purpose you aim to serve in the game, there's never a cookie cutter build.
And damn the point of that Alchemist scenario flew right above your head.
I almost always build the same item on luna though. Tbh, i really like getting early pike on sf just because i can get butter after that and become a glass cannon. I do think build can be affected by player preferences though.
The build ideally should not be about what you WANT to get. It's what you NEED to get.
The whole point of me saying not to pike right after lance is cuz u have another mobility option in sb.
Pike seems bad until u have at least one dmg item, cuz then ur mobile but whats the point of closing gaps if u cant kill anyone? Lance's range shud serve that "mobility" purpose till you get pike.
Bitte melde dich an um Kommentare zu posten.
yes or no?