General DiscussionInsight on a Juggernaut match

Ur items dont work together at all. Do never buy shitty scepter on jugg. Skadi+satanic. Too much STR, not enough dps. U shouldve bought mkb + bfly

Skillbuild. Max Ward but not crits

was hard game cause of warlock pa and anti good combo and wind feed alot just forget this game u won and did well.. maybe more tower damage

@PLYO Thanks in hindsight maybe I should've skipped Bfury and Dagger, I was just taking away farm from Spec. Would Manta and Abyssal be better replacements? Or should I have just stayed with Deso + Vladmirs, to fight early and give space for Spec to farm?

I don't understand regarding the skillbuild though, I only put a value point into each in the early game, I even prioritized one stat point. Please clarify about my mistake. Thanks for the input btw

yez abysal manta dofusal mkb was good choise too anyway u won game go on

@Son of a BEAUTIFUL WOMAN The encouragement means a lot, thanks. But I'm not that analytical yet and I need to hear critique from other players, I know on paper it looks like I did great but I'm sure there's progress to be seen here. Hmm yeah more tower damage is called for because WR was the only one capable of helping us with an early game advantage cuz we gave all the farm to her. She kept dying to get 2-man shackles and she didn't even finish it lmao. With that in mind maybe I should've ratted more this game since we couldn't win early game with an overly-aggressive mid throwing away our lead. Yeah thanks for the input.

no damage lol, should have mkb than satanic.

@Rin Tohsaka Didn't get MKB, WR told me she had PA covered (she did not) and made me focus on Warlock and Pudge before they could be of any use. Yeah I tried to believe in her and when I saw that I wasn't supposed to it was too late I was already committed to my items. A Butterfly was on the way but it tragically died while carrying my Eaglesong and Tali of Evasion.

Jug doesnt need lifesteal.. Ward an bfury is enough regen
.m. And that scepter is also useless.. U shoudlve gone for more carry oriented build with manta, diffusal or abyssal and mkb... Courtesy: see my jugg games

Ignre thm spelling mistakes xD

And as said before, max ward.. Not crit .. It helps in early regen u dnt hv to rush to base.. It also helps clear stacks early game

@John Nash Jr. Hmm I see Satanic does seem a bit overkill as only the Warlock seemed to attack my ward. Also by building Aghs I was trying to fill in the void that my WR was creating (we needed someone to carry the mid game, where Spec wasn't of much use) since WR was so set on kills even at the cost of her own life. It seems that the PA, AM, and Pudge were all too set far back to actually do anything gamebreaking in the mid game, makes sense that I should've gone hard carry since I already had such a huge lead, instead of waiting for my Spec to come online. Will take note of it, thanks.

Oh so that was the thing @PLYO was trying to tell me, I thought max ward instead of the other skills. Thanks for clarifying.

@æther . There is no reason to care of team especially on normal (!) skill. Play on ur own. Blink is always a good pickup. BF aswell against summoned shit. Manta wouldve been a good item but there were too much aoe (2 bf + leshrac) . Diffusal is good, especially against lesrac's ghost

@PLYO So all things considered, Aghanim's was a humongous waste of money? Tbh around 40 mins my ulti did seem a bit underwhelming, but my primary focus for it was to use it in conjunction with Satanic's active to reliably life steal since whenever I was half HP I was permastunned by magic immunity-piercing disables from the enemy team (Abyssal, Pudge ss, Warlock ulti). Perhaps my normal ulti would've done the job lmao I guess I just overappreciated (if that's a word, if not then it is a word now) my ulti since it pretty much carried me whole game. Will be sure to remember Diffusal pick-up, thanks.

Dude butterfly does more damage for your ulti than aghs if I am not mistaken, never buy that shit.

@YB Yeah I realized that when game was going to 50 mins. Had a Butterfly but cour got sniped lmao. Aghanim's inferiority will be remembered, thanks.

Also can you explain why Butterfly does more damage? I do believe you as other people have been saying the same thing, I just wanna know why. More agility = more attacks during the Omnislash? I need to know haha. No really I need to.

yeah 3 big mistakes.

if you got 3 points in to your ward early you can have had sustains pushes + it helps your team and keeps you from returning to base.

you have aghs when you could have had a butterfly, diffusal, manta, s'n'y, mkb, bkb, or abyssal.

Satanic might be ok in late game scenarios but you really needed a mkb to deal with pa, you could have had it at 30 minutes

The game didn't need to be that close.

Also just wanted to say, jug isn't a hero focused around his ult, sure he can burst someone down with it, it can help him survive a fight, but he is a right click carry and should be built that way.

Instead of buying agh u should consider buying mkb. Skadi and satanic make u already tanky plus u have 2nd skill to heal. Anyway u are the mvp.

@Gate 8-1-8 For the ward mistake I was being selfish since I had a HotD so I didn't really need the HP regen but now that I think of it my team didn't have a single utility item to sustain pushes/long teamfights. It did seem lategame I was healthy when pushing/cutting waves but during teamfights I had damage that could only take down the Warlock and Pudge. I could face the PA and AM simultaneously hitting me but apparently no damage + they had lifesteal.

In terms of dealing with PA, we were balling pretty hard do you think a Silver Edge could've worked? PA farmed a lot so with Silver Edge Break into Omnislash in their jungle then immediate TP out?

Also I see hardly anyone who builds it on any hero I don't know why. So in what situation should I aim to get it, and what should be the timing?

Thanks for the input.

@Kiro As with everybody else who has replied, you are right in saying Aghanim's Scepter is absolutely shit on Jugg, jsut didn't see it during the game got carried away with the Omnislash. Yeah I was tanky af prolly had 3.something k health but no damage output, MKB could've solved that lmao. Anyways thanks for the encouragement, will try to get even better for those sweet +25s!

buuuuummp

Just get phase battlefury yash manta diffusal with a blink. If they have heroes that will never get mkb or don't like building it then get butterfly. If you need lockdown for guys like AM or whatever get basher abyssal. You know now to max spin then ward. If you have manta you can never get silenced so you can always get spin off and ulti. Unless you are a berk and use it early. Some people will say don't even bother with battlefury but it will help you farm and your ult will hurt. Pop an aquila in there as an early game item. Shit like satanic and skadi aren't really necessary cus diffusal does a better job imo.

Low tier last hit (farming) efficiency, bump that up to 10+ cs/min!

Bad itemization (aghs is not good in 95% of jugg games, and especially not vs all of their units -- manta style am, and warlock golem, which greatly nullify your omnislash DPS) - you needed an mkb, bloodthorn, or silver edge here, probably a silver edge instead of blink.

Where's your abyssal blade? Why do you have a satanic? That is not an item on jugg, you're not supposed to get lifesteal on him generally, you have the healing ward for that anyways. Even a butterfly or AC would do you better here. You have lots of HP but you're really not that tanky when it comes to armor, so I'm sure PA ripped you to shreds.

Don't die so much. Farm better. Buy the right items. They didn't have mkb's, you should have had a butterfly instead of satanic. Probably throw in a bkb there too somewhere.

@YB So Phase --> RoA --> Bfury (optional?) --> Yasha --> Diffusal --> Manta/Blink --> Situational items like BKB, MKB, and Abyssal. Is that right? I also watched a video where Miracle prioritized Ward over Bladefury. In which lineups is this build acceptable? Video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8KVvZ7mcPc

Also, in the face of magic immunity-piercing disables such as this match, which items should I get? My logic behind Satanic was to heal with Omnislash in the event that I get focused on with the said disables, in the end that worked but I didn't have enough damage to work with. Okay thanks for the input!

@aaron I thought I did pretty well considering Pudge roamed a lot and it was contested with a mana burner and a spell spammer in the lane. Regardless, what CS should I aim for during my Juggernaut BF games? If it's uncontested I know I should get 10 cs/min if I don't jungle, but in a normal 2v2 scenario what am I supposed to get in order to be efficient?

Haha so much hate for Aghs, I now that understand Juggernaut needs his damage. Also, which heroes are worth getting Silver Edge for? PA for her Blur, Bristle for his, well, bristles. Anyone else?

Hmm so I prioritize lockdown over damage? Or is this a special case since AM has a blink? Satanic's lifesteal is overkill when I have Ward + Bfury, will remember. And nah PA's crits did hurt but I was able to heal back up, I didn't deal any damage in return though and what little I did was easily lifestolen back to healh lmao.

Can't do anything special about map awareness, I'm currently following a regime wherein I check mini map every few seconds and check each lane every 10 seconds, I'm not doing it perfectly but I'm starting hehe. In what situation would I need a BKB? Can't I just burst them all down?

So yeah thanks for the insight.

You're not a robot, you can think for yourself and you must if you want to improve. Will phase > RoA win you the game/lane, or will RoH > Phase boots > RoA win you the game?

You have to think situationally. Why do you need an item? If you need it right now, or soon, you buy it. Item prioritization and timing matters.

Personally I usually go PMS > RoH for permanent lane sustain, but it depends on how hard or easy the lane is, there is no one build! Always adapt to the situation at hand.

Also when should I make an SnY? People never build it nowadays so when is it actually viable? Or is has it fallen to obscurity like Rod of Atos?

And why does Butterfly add more damage than Scepter to my Omnislash? Is more agility = more damage? I thought my ulti has fixed slash number so Aghs can be the only item that makes my ulti hurt more.

Your attack damage works with slashes -_-

@aaron Yes I understand. I agree that there is no cookie cutter build, but aren't there early game items that are viable? Somewhat like the in-game suggestions, I wanna edit mine based on the info I get from this thread. My problem is that I recognize the need to adapt, but somehow I forget which items are worth considering. Which is why I am compiling a list.

Also is it worth it to buy gg branches then just use them to heal up using tangoes? I see a lot of pro players doing this, but it looks like I'm wasting precious gold for regen because of having low HP, a problem that I could have avoided.

Gratz on the 4 Battle Cup wins in a row btw, and ty for sending me input on this.

@薄氷 So in that sense it is better to invest in pure attack damage in the form of agility items, rather than hoping to stack more slashes? Will keep that in mind during itemization, ty.

Juggernaut with a battlefury can farm very hard. 50 - 70 cs in 10 mins, anything below 50 means you suck/lost your lane. By around 23 minutes or so you should start getting nearly 9 - 10 cs/minute. By 30 minutes you can have 300 cs, or 10 cs per minute. As it gets later and later you can easily do 11 cs/minute.

2v2 I would probably get like ring of health asap. Vs an AM, it's hard to say. Again you have to think for the situation. I think I'd be aggressive but I don't have enough info to give you that answer.

Silver edge isn't something you really wanna get on jugg, not that great, but probably better than your blink purchase. Really good for am too, I guess. Silver edge is good vs axe, it disables his passive, which obviously is annoying. Good vs spectre. Decent vs huskar, helps your team's magic dps on him mainly..

No, you don't blindly prioritize lockdown vs damage. It's situational, but skullbasher/abyssal blade are pretty much core on jugg.. situational!

The BKB would get rid of a lot of their magic damage, including leshrac's mainly.. it's again though, situational. A bkb would be more useful than an aghs here. BKB is not the best jugg item, but you know.. it's a good option..

In between omnislash hits, you also do normal attacks, so if you have high attack speed during the duration you get more 'normal' attacks.

SNY on jugg is good if you wanna tank up the hp and fight early, if you wanna push because of your big lead, and if you don't need manta (you also forego the manta + diffusal combo). If I was vs a silencer, I'm definitely going manta, but if I'm vs pudge, sny is nice. Etc.

Don't worry about wasting your branches, I probably eat them with tangoes in 90% of my games -- they can keep you in lane longer, very useful if you're running out of tangoes and courier won't be coming to you anytime soon, etc.

anti mage will out farm a jugg with bfury if given the same space, Jugg can fight earlier than anti mage, so you should've built items that can beat him, like manta abysal bkb, instead u bought BFURY and AGHS, which gave u absolutely nothing but farrming and a good ult, which AM can easily escape from.

you turned the game into a farming match and AM wins in that scenario unless its like vs a fat sven who can rip him apart in a couple hits.

Jugg could've ran at AMs team while his team was not ready to fight, but u chose to get items that dont help yuo win TEAM FIGHTS / PUSH TOWERS / PRESSURE TOWERS with illusions

hopefully you understand now.

To be fair it was an offlane am. And it's low mmr. May as well outfarm him.

But yeah am can't teamfight early, so it's also probably better to not try to farm. He can't do shit early.

I 100% agree with CL1B.

Given enough time an anti-mage can always (usually) catch up in farm, it's all about reducing the places he can feel safe farming so try to ruin his early game, push towers early, and farm his jungle. Diffusal, manta, blink would have been good for this strat along with at least 3 points in ward as mentioned (remember to micro the ward), picking up a butterfly could be nice for the damage and evasion this game, a bkb or linkens pick could be considered.

Also If you are getting diffusal always get manta and vice versa cause the purge slows anyway and your illusions benefit from the mana drain, if you not getting diffusal then you can think about s'n'y, also silver edge isn't an awful solution against pa, it's just the build up isn't ideal, maybe instead of blink if you keep it hidden, it's your call though.

It's all about looking at the line-up and thinking about what you need to get done, jug is quite a flexible carry.

Also just wanted to add, you can auto-attack in between the slashes but only If Jugg's attack time is lower than 0.4 that's how you can do more damage without aghs and build dps items instead.

You can also use items (like blink) when you blade fury or omnislash.

Hi guys it's me friendly NS player here again. I decided to necro this post since through busy days I've found time to play some dotes again and I have time to kill by typing legit, no-bullshit stuff on the forum in the form of this thread. Okay so I was able to play Juggernaut twice two days ago, won one lost one and ran him mid both games. Okay I'll start by stating what I noticed and once again I hope you guys can help me by adding more stuff, like the first one. The first post was so successful so why not do it again, thanks to all the guys who helped! Aight let's get to it.

Game 1: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2631779066

Once I saw an Invoker and Huskar pick I knew I should run my Juggernaut mid, any attempt Invo would do to solo kill me would be rendered useless if I reserve my Bladefury for escapes, I might even get a return kill. I knew I was an even match and that I could beat the guy mid, and I did. Also the early level 2 Omnislash allowed me to completely shutdown the Huskar whenever he decided to fight my team, even if he had an early Mordi. Regarding the early crits and the absence of a RoA I bought Bottle so I decided to take a little risk. LC was cooperative with me when she tried to gank mid; we killed the Invoker twice allowing LC and me to gain an advantage.

However the problem came in mid game. The thing was after I picked Juggernaut the Storm Spirit decided he wanted to play mid so he picked Storm and argued whether who should go mid. Thankfully I was still in PMA and I spoke to him reasonably enough to convince me to go mid. Also the Rubick gave me his pooled tangoes so that sealed the deal. Even though the Storm was bickering at every move I made it was okay at least we reached an understanding. He stole farm, wasted precious mana just to ulti all my low-health creeps when I used Bladefury to farm, quick to critize teammates. Nevertheless PMA and shit I didn't want to mute him because to be honest games can't be won without communication.

What was most triggering was the fact that he neglected to initiate against the enemy team, leaving it to me to jump first with my ulti. I brought dust so it was either a low HP sniper or a dead AA whenever I initiated. Although it ended very well for the team because the early advantage of the LC + clean-up kills allowed her to ball out of control, I eventually lost my personal lead making me look like a complete feeder.

No, I don't care what people think but I believe something could have been done to avoid a 7/9/9 KDA as a mid Juggernaut. I recognize that problems might arise if the midlaner will guarantee a successful teamfight at the cost of his own life, what with comeback mechanics, lower game impact and such, but what alternatives are available to a Juggernaut when his teammate/s are uncooperative? Just try to 1v5 the game? If so which items should I prioritize? Still go with Diffu --> Manta to take early teamfights and snowball off of that? Or take advantage of my better, albeit marginally, farming speed when compared to my peers and take it late?

Game 2: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2631945725
Still ran him mid because I thought I was getting a passive lane versus a Pudge, was wrong PA went mid. Even then I immediately upgraded my Stout Shield, bought a QB, ferried a Magic Stick over as fast as I could because I knew this was gonna be spam-heavy lane with a lot of last hitting/denying/harassing in between. Overall lane was fun, fair, and exciting. The kind that you know this isn't gonna be easy and it won't be hard either. I'm not one to toot my own horn but tbh I felt I outlaned the PA for the most part because I had the advantage of waveclear at rune spawn timings, something she did not have access to. I believe I also had more control over lane equilibrium.

Axe and Earthshaker weren't exactly buddies they fed 2 kill 3 mins into the game because they were trying to backdoor, a bit salty but PMA persevered. This game was certainly winnable, it was just that all of my teammate's positioning was shit, Pudge and Sniper saw that and started to feed off of them + PA was smart and didn't jump all the time reminded me of how QO plays PA lmao. That wasn't the only reason however. Contrary to the LC of my first Juggernaut game, this LC was not so good. Too much of a farmer rather than fighter, bad decision making and always panicked when ganked. By the time enemy had their first set of rax she had 62 duel damage.

The biggest thing that's bothering me is the fact that I know I could have solo carried the game. Despite the team's constant deaths PA didn't have that big of a lead against me regarding GPM, and we have almost the same XPM. That was the whole point of my Juggernaut mid, match PA's early aggressiveness with my own and that worked for the first part.

To me it looks like my itemization, although good, didn't fill the situation enough. Although Kelen's made some really great escapes for me, I think I should have bought an MKB before Kelen's and Vanguard. Yes my team's Blademails absolutely destroyed PA but it was not reliable because the PA was not braindead and knew how to position herself against Dagger initiations, ie, keeping so far back not that far but enough to spam Stifling Dagger but still maintain distance vs Blinks so that they wont immediately reach you. Only guys I could pick off was ET and Sniper, and even that wasn't an assurance since the Pudge bought an EBlade (had to use most of my Diffusal charges to remove the Linken's Sphere to allow the LC to duel Weaver, no more money to upgrade).

I finished the game with 11/6/5 KDA but that won't mean much if I keep losing right?

So yeah that happened and both of these games really were learning experiences, I just need help identifying my personal flaws according to what OTHER players see, preferably better players but everyone is welcome to help.

As always any opinion is valued, be as brutal as you can but do keep in mind I'm relatively new to the game and be reasonable about your advice. Thanks!

also im a bit smoked rite nao i gotta go sleep have fun readin the goddamn wall of text yall

cant comment much on game 1, you and your team did well.. pretty nice decision to go the sacrificial route to enable your LC. that 7/9/9 kda IMO was bcs eventhough u alrdy decided to help LC snowball, you still go for the standard carry item builds.. just go full ham with the utility and survivability items (remember u still got luna, and storm to a lesser extent, as safety net if LC somehow failed later on)

game 2 was kinda a disaster from the start with that draft.. 4 mellee against a lineup that pretty much screams 'KITE' in it lol.. i think you should go for a high risk high reward build here, go for the 'glass cannon' path with fast dagger and max dps to aim their isolated heroes FAST before they could get any kiting started in clashes

Silver Edge Silver Edge Silver Edge Silver Edge Silver Edge Silver Edge

and Refresher.

Change agh satanic with manta diffu ans its Ok

@ilmimi Hello thanks for the kind words. Yeah my team was decent, no feeders and noobs just flamers. Rubick helped a bunch by securing LC some duel wins by stealing Invoker Suntrike, commended both of them for that. Admittedly Storm was not complete shit, maybe just a douche because he did use Dagon to last hit. Nobody complained. That was how PMA we all were haha. Anyways Luna recognized the fact that we were gonna win so she started buying gimmicky items like Aghanims, pretty sure she had a Refresher for the final clash.

Okay regarding the item build, if I see the need to fully act like a semicarry and allow a fellow semicarry with a better advantage to snowball or let the real hard carry snowball, is this the time for Drums --> Vladmir's --> maybe an AC or a Sheepstick? Not just Juggernaut mid but any Jugg who decides to go full utility build. Hurricane Pike possible? idk I don't know much of the Utility Juggernaut I've hardly ever seen one anywhere lmao. That's it for Game 1.

Game 2. Hmm yes team was not that bad but not that great either, maybe leaning towards the bad side a bit. Max DPS, Phase --> MoM (?) --> Kelen's --> Desolator --> MKB? Can you suggest some max DPS Juggernaut item builds and what my mindset should be when playing a melee glass cannon Revolver? ik How to play as a glass cannon ranged hero because I play lot of SF and PA (stay back, if there's even a whiff of a failed teamfight distance yourself as far as you can but close enough to react if team gets jumped on). I include PA because when people get MKBs PA is now very fragile and has to rely on RNGesus to give entry frag daggers before she can go. Okay so without any of that available to Juggernaut, should I go initiate first and YOLO or wait for my team to bring people to low health so that I can clean-up? Also when the game is in downtime should I try to go for solo smoke ganks? Or farm up myself and get more DPS items?

That's it @ilmimi your insights are well founded and truly constructive, thanks.

@[BB]CardonaNotta Hi lmao you shitposting or what? idk if you're serious but Silver Edge is good if separate from Refresher, and Refresher is better if you buy something like Butterfly or MKB instead of Silver Edge. Tell me why you think those two shits are good, I'll be open minded haha. Also make a banner that says "Trump and Clinton aren't the only options. Vote Haffy for President 2016!"

So thanks for the time and effort I guess lol

@3kTrashxD Hi man actually I'm done with the first match, I recognize the fault in a too much of a tank Juggernaut that will fail to carry the late game. If you don't mind I do have two other games you can analyze if you want, any kind of help is appreciated, thanks!

Because Batman.

I can't tell if you just seriously implied SE and Refresher aren't good items on a core Jugs. I suppose you're the type that thinks a Refresher is also stupid on Sven, huh?

@[BB]CardonaNotta Sorry if you misunderstand I do see the potential of a Refresher Juggernaut just owning people if gotten early and you can end early, I just mean Refresher is BETTER when used in conjunction/together with Butterfly and MKB because your right clicks in between slashes will get really painful, instead of getting an SE WITH a Refresher.

Also I hope you understood that I meant that SE is good if not taken WITH Refresher, as previously stated.

I'm not saying any of those items are bad, was just trying to rationalize your SE + Refresher build.

*EDIT* Maybe Refresher can also work as a 7th item as opposed to an early 3rd/4th item as Juggernaut. I'm pretty sure that's Robin or smthng not Batman.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2631945725

What I was referring to was this match. Weaver and Sniper positioning is mostly obvious here right from the get go. ET, Pudge, and PA soak up everything you have while Weaver and Sniper pick you apart and peep. Bring sentries, Refresher, and SE and you deal with both problem children that match. At least to the point where they'll have to take their full attention off of the team fights, where your team has an abhorrent amount of lock down and team fight themselves. Mean while, you're chilling with Sniper and Weaver and completely untouchable inside an 8 second combined ult, most likely making them split apart faster than an Agh Lich ult. Let's say now that they happen to be on opposite sides of the battlefield: refresh, SE, rush over to the next target and ult. If you get those 2 to group closely to the rest of their team, even better. You had an Axe, Earthshaker, and Warlock on the same team to deal with grouping during ult.

Not to mention, because you hopefully smacked either Weaver or Sniper with SE both refreshed times, their damage is naturally reduced by half and their natural passive is dead in the water.

Jugs ult doesn't necessarily have to be painful; his ult just has to be on top of your head, and your attention from the fight will usually waver if you're not in the middle of it. (That's the nature of playing skittish, position heavy heroes like Sniper and Weaver.) Thus freeing up space for your real team fight to come through. Maybe even throw in an Agh there to keep yourself out of harms way while your 4 tanks clean up the pure squish.

And I was never talking about good itemization on Jugs as he's not even a hero I play. What I was talking about, however, is your absolute best bet against a Weaver/Sniper/PA line up was tanky heroes that could out last them. All the while you sit in the rafters causing chaos. That thought occurred to me before I even looked at anyone's items. This was an all tank vs 3-man hard carry squish draft from the get go. I think you would have won regardless with the build you picked had your team not fed a PA of all things.

Above all else, going SE first would have given you opportunity to gank and hopefully shut down that PA before she got that gigantic.

P.S. I'm sorry about being snappish earlier. And I don't even know if this is coherent enough to be logical at this point. Headaches, man, they sure do suck.