It goes both ways, you can profit from it as much as you can lose. If you had a 10-0 score an then their carry with brown boots and magic stick alone gets a kill on you after you've overextended into a fight after losing a support, you deserve it, and he deserves it.
I think the feature is intended to make games more interesting in the pro scene and less frustrating for newer players. People like watching big comebacks in the arenas, and new players are less likely to quit if they realise they always have a chance to comeback after being stomped early game. Obviosuly it can feel cheap if your team is in the lead, but generally if only one person on their team obtains that advantage, you can reclaim it if you are careful. The issue is teams getting too cocky and throwing bodies and therefore gold at the enemy.
Also this does not discourage snowballing heroes, this only discourages reckless playing. If you're snowballing you just have to be careful because you don't want to feed 1400 gold to the enemy antimage, but if you're snowballing really hard you should make sure to play safer than you would've before and that's about it.
yea i deserve to die if thats the case, but if i made a mistake and died, does that equal with their 10mistakes???? and thats not always the case, it might be a death in teamfight that u were dragged by ur teammates, a tp assists and all the sudden every1 focuses u, a smoke gank.
What im sayin is that if i managed to get to the point that im feed that was coz of their mistakes, and do those mistakes r the same as 1 mistake that i might make??? I know i should worth more gold then them but that honestly is gamebreaking, u can't hope to pick a snowballing hero and win with a clear score of 15-0, u will eventually die in a way or another unless u r 1k mmr lower than u should be.
With great power comes great responsibility, I guess. Also you should push as soon as possible with your advantage so you capitalize on it before you feed your streak.
@fuck my life
And that pushing thing is exactly the point u feed ur streak coz u cant go highground no matter what kind of advantage u have on a snowballing hero (which almost all of them dont excel at pushing), even if u kill most of them while tryin to get rax eventually buyback will follow and they cost so little at that stage of the game compared to the bounty that they take after killin u.
I honestly cant see how its fair
SHouldnt it be like, u r better than some1, u rip them appart, build the advantage and unless u r moron who keeps dyin for no reason u will lose the game, otherwise u will most likely win rather than not?
If you're really that much better than those people you'll win most games anyway, so that's okay. And this comeback mechanic actually forces you to go for mega creeps to ensure victory and to go and circle pushes, get all T1s down, then get all T2s and slowly farm up until you can go for rax. Basically, even if you feed 1000 gold to the enemy carry, what's he going to do at that point? Finish his bkb, bfury or a damage/mobility item? Maybe. But you should have both a bkb and a damage item and a mobility item at that point, and he's sitting on power treads and half the battlefury. Really, the greater the lead, the less the gold you feed out means, in some sense. If the game is balanced you get and feed a medium amount of gold when you die/kill. If you're really far in terms of lead, feeding a ton of gold does not truly change as much as you'd hope, especially if they've taken one of your T1s down, and they are down to only having T3s and past that.
I've feed 2000 gold after I over extended a high ground push as a legion. You know what happened after that? I just bought back, TPd back to the fight, killed everyone and secured mega creeps by jumping around the rax. Yes, they did get a shitton of gold, and yes, that was stupid of me, but I've managed to deal so much damage and accomplish so much that using an aegis + death + buyback + bots back to fight was eventually worth it, because they used all they had on me, and now had nothing, so even with buybacks they'd do jack shit, and they mostly had buybacks because of my 2000 gold feed to a single person + a lot of AoE gold feed as well. Of course, this was a shit high skill game where I run over them out of the fucking jungle, but the point is that there's just little people can do even if you feed out a huge streak/amount of gold, because at that point they are down to their rax, etc. Of course this changes under certain circumstances, but you still need to die several times for your lead feed to truly make a difference in terms of who wins the game, unless you feed it lategame and have no buyback/some other stupid shit that'd cost you a game even without comeback mechanics.
It is not as bad as you think :D
VictimLevel = Level of the Victim
VictimNW = The victim's Net Worth
EnemyTeamNW = Enemy team's total Net Worth
AlliedTeamNW = Your team's total Net Worth
NWDifference = ( EnemyTeamNW / AlliedTeamNW ) - 1 [Min 0, Max 1]
NWFactor = NWDifference * VictimNW
1 Hero: Gold = 40 + 7 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
2 Heroes: Gold = 30 + 6 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.06
3 Heroes: Gold = 20 + 5 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.05
4 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.04
5 Heroes: Gold = 10 + 4 * VictimLevel + NWFactor * 0.03
1 Hero: XP = 20 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3
2 Heroes: XP = 15 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.3
3 Heroes: XP = 10 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.2
4 Heroes: XP = 7 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.15
5 Heroes: XP = 5 * VictimLevel + XPFactor * 0.12
The MAXIMUM comeback gold you can get for a kill is 3 to 6% of the net worth of the person you killed (in the case of the 3%, it's 15% distributed to 5 people). It caps at that amount when the enemy team has double your net worth. And, keep in mind, killstreak gold and kill gold in general were lowered by quite a bit. 15% of the networth of a hero whose team has DOUBLE your net worth, distributed between 5 heroes, is really not that much. People bitch about comeback gold and really it's their fault for throwing enough teamfights in a row for it to matter, despite having an advantage.
Does the comeback system screw a couple of heroes, like Alch? Yes. It does, and that needs to change. But that doesn't excuse all the ignorant people who claim dumb shit like "I was up 30-0 then they ganked our underfarmed support 5 times and caught up." People seem to only remember 6.82 and how bad the multiplier was, and forget the fact that Icefrog lowered the comeback gold multiplier to a tenth of what it was back then.
Face it, comeback gold is here to stay, if you're going to suggest changes and/or bitch about it then at least learn the formula instead of spreading misinformation about how it works.
dude ive seen heroes worth 183 gold...thats 4 cs, now take an average of 200gold from heroes that u r feeding on and make it 10kills, thats 2k gold, its not even a fckin vanguard nor a mek, and we r 15mins ingame, and if u die to their team u will feed 1.4gold to the 1 who deals the killin blow approximatly 600-800 to every1 else takin assists, u can do ur math i think, im not even takin in consideration the ammount of exp which is huge. And if u say PUSH!! ok lets push towers, they r worth even less than 4cs. So the kills show up a huge advantage while the actual advantage is smth like 2-2.5k gold which is nothing to ur BKB-->DMG item--->mobility item...its more like 50% of 1 of those items, and u took 50% of that shit for the risk of giving back 2-3times the amount of that. Do u get my point????
And no dont even say slow down, coz u r a snowballing hero u will fall off eventually. And im talkin about the cases when u aint extremly better than the oposing team, u might be better but not by a massive margin it just happens u have a strong hero and a good game.
I have no problem of losin a game after screwin up more a couple of teamfight....thats how its supposed to be
@Feel and Blame
"Does the comeback system screw a couple of heroes, like Alch? Yes. It does, and that needs to change. But that doesn't excuse all the ignorant people who claim dumb shit like "I was up 30-0 then they ganked our underfarmed support 5 times and caught up." People seem to only remember 6.82 and how bad the multiplier was, and forget the fact that Icefrog lowered the comeback gold multiplier to a tenth of what it was back then."
no1 is even putin that in discussion so i have no idea why u brought that up, but the case would be diffrent if i was 30-0 alch and they ganked me and caught up, thats a problem and they wont w8 for u to go 30-0 while u r 6 slotted...that will happen between 15-25mins and u will have a max 2-3 items, and they will catch up to u rest assured about that especially to alch who is extremly dependant on massive amount of gold diffrences considering he is rather weak to other carries even if they r even less farmed than he is.
Im not talkin about a feeding teammate, im talkin about u losing a streak that u gained earlygame, and dont tell me that games where 1 team gets raped early game, and proccesdes to win the midgame havent been a bit to frequent.
"now take an average of 200gold from heroes that u r feeding on and make it 10kills, thats 2k gold, its not even a fckin vanguard nor a mek, and we r 15mins ingame, and if u die to their team u will feed 1.4gold to the 1 who deals the killin blow approximatly 600-800 to every1 else takin assists"
that's where you got it wrong, you wont even give 1000 gold to the enemy team if that happened
I have posted the formula above, do the math urself please
and regarding topic, yeah this lost me too many games, cuz i am the guy who dives towers for extra kills, but no way i can do that now
Man it all depends on the difference in networth between the teams, and the difference between the killer and the killed player. If the difference is high enough to give the killing team a big item, that means you were already too powerful and cannot be killed easily. But if you still get killed (even if it is a smoke gank when u r jungling) that means the team who did it deserve the gold and xp kappa
idk man mb u r right but ive felt lately that ive won games where i hugely unerperfomed and lost a few where i thought i was better than usual and in both cases i felt kind of dissapointed. I know that in the long run is almost the same coz u can do to others what they did to u to take the victory, it just doesnt feel right, mb its me, but anyway tnx for ur opinion i rly appriciate it, u had arguments to back it up.
Why not speak your mind on dev dota instead?
The place where devs can actually hear you cry.
thats the diffrence im not tryin to cry im tryin to figure out if most of ppl think like me or if im the one who has to change. U ppl have a wierd way of putin everything on the same bag be that QQ about how op a hero is, how teammates suck, how u r stuck on some wierd trench, how some1 seeks advice about smth, how some1 seeks the opinions of others on a certain matter. Everything is just a huge massive blackhole u call crying. Good thing we dont see in black and white coz if that would be the case we would be narrowminded but im "sure" that ain the case.
He didn't really mean you should be a crybaby or something, just share your idea with others in a place where people would be able to do something about it, better yet, make a poll to see what kind of a % of people would actually agree with it, and if you do it, by all means post a link to that here.
^because every game is a stomp right and all heroes have equal farm abilities right and all heroes have equal hero killing abilities right
i just want the fact that im 7 0 in middle to give me an advantage rather than it being a liability (me having to hide from smoke ganks and shit)
At first glace no, but do i want my games to be decided by 1 mistake that some1 makes instead of 10 that the other team did? NO and thats exactly what im scared off. Dota used to be like if u lose early game u will have a hard midgame but u can turn it around lategame, simple as that. Nowdays u lose earlygame, and by losing i mean u can be litterally getting raped and u end up winning the game inside the midgame, so basically all the advantage ur enemy took from the early game was good for nothing.
I can take a loss thats not my problem, and every1 wants to win, but id rather lose to a guy who showed greater skill than meand he punished me consistently during the game coz of my bad positioning and wierd game concept, then win against this guy by one retarded smokegank/teamfight that even if its his mistake it can never be equal to my former mistakes.
Thats all, its not about winning or about losing. Its about fun, and the game is fun when its just, it gives satisfaction when u win by deserveing it, not by wierd "balances" that tend to give alot of emotion to tobis scream and that spectators can jeez in their pants with big turnarounds. Do u know i used to play invoker...well guess what i didnt this patch more than 1-2 just to try him coz i felt defiled...and the same happened when storm was overpowered i think i had the record of not picking him a single time, just coz i dont want to have an unfair advantage just to boost my epeen on how gr8 i am, i hate to lie to myself.
Lemme give u a simple analogy, its the same as if u worked ur ass off all ur life in school/university and actually with nice grades but all of a sudden on the last year some dude whos been slackin all the time gets the job u wanted coz he apparently copied on job test. Well i agree its alot of fun to watch this kind of turnaround, its hilarious but its not fair, and its smth u see in a movie and laugh but when u r actually in it, u would feel bad in both cases even if u failed to get the job coz u would be furious and even if u won the job coz u didnt deserve it.
@Invorkel
"i just want the fact that im 7 0 in middle to give me an advantage rather than it being a liability (me having to hide from smoke ganks and shit)"
^THIS!!!!
jesus christ u nailed it, ive been shitting wall texts for hours and u said all i wanted to say in a single sentence. well fckin played
cheers.
I played a game recently where the enemy team used four people to kill mid lane over and over again. Completely ignoring bot lane, top lane and our infamous jungle lc.
I'm not sure but following your logic we should have lost because the invoker (and I while trying to help him) fed at least 12 kills in 10 minutes. So the scoreboard was 12-0 after 10 minutes.
In the end we won because in my opinion the focus in this game is not in killing the same people over and over again. It is winning your lane and follow the objectives (destroy towers and the throne). Our carries got so much farm on their lanes because it was uncontested.
Valve make that change to encourage team fights and cooperation between team mates.
Yes now you can't win game alone because you are better than others so often, but i'm ok with that.
@朱利安
yea well u can win ofc, thats a special case, its like they did it intentionaly, u cant forget the entire map and keep shitting on the mid while 3 other cores afk farm. Im not talkin about extreme cases.
@Георги Великов
Yea exactly, its kind of saddening imo but ill have to get used to it.
"TLDR Plugin is a free extension that creates a summary of any web article"
TIL that shitposts are web articles
@DaV It's the same situation with denies. When they change it many good players were like wtf, but it is what it is. :)
I remember the days of 6.83 where many my team just fed Ursa/Axe into beyond godlike and then dove the t3 towers and fed 2k+ gold to everyone.
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Do u think its fair that nowdays u can have a pretty significant lead and 1 single mistake and u know the game is lost?....i mean u might be better than some1, and solo kill him and from there proccede to snowball, the problem is that after a couple of kills u get extremly low amounts of gold and exp from ppl u kill which is smth like 3 creep kills, idk if its even worth it, the worst part is that ur value increases way to much so basically u can be on beyond godlike streak and still not have an extremly huge advantage, especially on snowballing heroes, AND if u die u give like fckin 1k+gold and shittones of exp to the guy who landed the killin blow which often is the retard who cant get 10 cs in 10mins, and if what u lose is a teamfight ive seen naked guyz buy an aghs in just 1 teamfight or sometimes even a hex.
Ironically ive seen ppl intentionally feeding comeback ingame after 1 smoke kill on the fed guy. That is total bullshit. how can u be equal if u managed to go 10-0 to some1 who is 0-10 just on 1 kill, its logical that some1 who is fed and has higher lvl worth more than an already rekt enemy but this is way to much, ive litterally lost games when the total score was 28-2 in the first 15mins, and ive lost that shit just 10mins later.
Nowdays u cant pick a snowballing hero, coz with every kill u have done u increase the amount of gold u r worth immensly, and god forbid if u die from a smoke gank their entire team will get smth like 4-5k gold from 1 kill of urs while u didnt took more than 2k from 10 kills, which its funny coz u could be evenly farmed even if u didnt kill any1 just farmed creeps and u wouldnt worth that much gold if u died.
Idk wtf icefrog is thinking but this discourages snowballing heroes. Now u cant be the guy who mutes all chat and doesnt care that ur teammates suck cuz u can do this shit urself since u r better than others, no u r forced to teamup with any1 nonenglish speakin prick that qued on euwest. Im not sayin that its no longer possible to do this shit anymore its just way more hard and extremly more punishing.
Mb its just me idk, i would like to know ur thoughts on this, and some arguments to back it up if possible since im not tryin to just whine im tryin to understand whats goin on in order to reflect on myself.