General Discussion

General DiscussionDo you remember when...

Do you remember when... in General Discussion
Riguma Borusu

    ...invoker had 43% winrate and was an autoloss? How come now every retard can pick him and it's a 50/50, wasn't the hero supposed to be somewhat skill intensive to execute properly? His winrate scales almost linearly from 2k- to 5k+ so obviously some skill/execution still improves his winrate but at the same time, he's fucking 49% bellow 2k right now which is ridiculously close to heroes that are not skill intensive at all. But I guess part of that is that people rarely get BKBs bellow 2k.

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    arin

      probably because in 2k you can use 2 or 3 spells max and still win

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        If you want to win you build him efficient if you want to lose you build refresher and aghs and try to combo them down while they just use BKB and laugh at you

        Riguma Borusu

          Well, I guess that's an important aspect of it. Even in high skill I see people usually use only about 5-6 spells as well, so it's not like they are 'invoker pros' by any means, but it seems that the hero's got way way less skill dependent than he used to be at least in regards to winning with him on your team.

          I am seeing more and more people favoring the carry build right now, they basically get an aghs if they want to throw combos down, but then you BKB and suddenly qw invoker right clicks you with daedalus and skadi (and I've seen people building an AC on him, which has no synergy with his spells in general) for your BKB duration, and if you are not dead by the end of it, he'll just continue to kite you if you're melee. I feel like being a melee against invoker, if you can't straight jump him lategame, you're going to have a really bad time because your bkb is now 5 seconds and he's built properly to kite you, and not only that but he can also kill you since he hits like a truck due to overbuffing.

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          arin

            aghs refresher is good shit, get out

            Riguma Borusu

              Aghs refresher should actually be GOOD against bkbs because you can bait the bkbs out and wait them out, and then screw people. It just depends on what you're trying to accomplish and what your opponents are, I feel. Then again, if you build for physical damage + kiting against melees you're pretty much going to autowin unless it's something like spectre which you really don't want to face lategame anyway.

              The thing is, the hero just used to be:
              You're skilled with the hero -> you stand a good chance of winning
              You're not skilled with the hero -> autoloss

              Right now it's like:
              You're skilled with the hero -> autowin
              You're not skilled with the hero -> you still stand a good chance of winning

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              arin

                you're skilled with the hero -> win
                you're not skilled with the hero -> you are useless but that doesn't make you lose the game if your team carries you

                compare it to like meepo where if you're not capable of microing you'll feed 20 deaths

                JIbbe

                  skill intensive? every hero requires skill to win and invoker isn't that hard imo. wraith king has only 1 spell but doesn't mean any retard can insta win with him

                  Riguma Borusu

                    "skill intensive? every hero requires skill to win and invoker isn't that hard imo."

                    Yes, but before you really had to be on point when playing him in order to win. Right now though, just not feeding and occasionally using spells well is good enough it seems. His win rate has changed by 8% in the last 3 patches which is huuuuge."

                    "wraith king has only 1 spell but doesn't mean any retard can insta win with him"

                    If you manage to pick him against no illusion heroes and no mana burn heroes and no typical diffusal builders, you have a huge likelyhood of winning in your bracket. I mean, shit, his winrate is very high even in 5k+ MMR range even despite him being 'simple', he's just hard to deal with if the player's not a complete retard and you have no heroes innately good vs him because he'll just end up pushing and you won't be able to stop him when he fronts his team lategame because you might be screwed even if you kill him once... or twice if he has aegis.

                    The thing is, WK has always been built around the "use two or three buttons, don't be a complete retard" idea, invoker hasn't, recent changes have patched him from being utter shit to actually being a win-more hero, and it is less of an issue when it's a hero that takes less skill that now instantly wins more, it's just weird to observe a hero with some skill cap actually get 8% more winrate in a matter of few patches and break the 50% winrate boundary by a good margin.

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                    .GENGHIS.

                      With Alacrity buff in early 6.86, Aggressif & W33 played him as right-clicker (makes sense) with Deso or Crit builds.

                      But, they took the synergy of Quas+Wex (attack & movement speed) with it which before used to focus on team-fights or crowd control having 3 spells alone.

                      In return, any decent Invoker player was bound to have impact on game hence increase in win ratio. Though, if you compare ratio of 6.86 with 6.86c, it's going down.

                      Later, 6.86c nerfed the Alacrity damage, but still, it's too damn good if you go Quas+Exort. I think, Valve or Icefrog want the return of Quas+Exort Invoker because Quas+Wex has been abused a lot in competitive scene.

                      I prefer how ^Black plays him. Classic Quas+Exort with Octarine. Makes a lot of sense for me with mid & late game battles.

                      Personally, when it comes to "skills" of Invoker, I judge Invoker players' skills with how good they are in using Ice wall & when.

                      But, then again, I'm just a normal skill Invoker player so my opinion may not matter and may be completely invalid.