solar crests win rate on him is actually pretty insane for its cost. then again it barely has any games, it might be worth trying out.
Lets consider the EHP and dps potential of these options. Are you facing nukes or attacks? Are they clumping and hugging towers, or trying split push? These are the factors that should decide itemization.
Viper's dmg output depends rather dramatically on his survivability because he does vastly more work late in a fight with nether toxin.
Suppose you are a level 11 Viper with STR treads and mech (networth 3700). You haves 891+171+95=1157 hp, +250 heal = 1407 hp. Armor is 13.14 with mech active. So EHP = 2516
Compare to STR treads and aghs (networth 5600). You have 891+171+190+200 = 1452 hp. Armor is 7.54. So EHP = 2109
Compare to STR treads and Solar Crest (networth 4400). You have 891+171 = 1062 hp. Armor is 16.14, with 30% evasion. So EHP = 2986.
Active items are more powerful. The best path going to be some combination of mech components with medallion, finish mech, then finish solar crest. But if you are facing a ton of nukes how does glimmer cape compare?
level 11 Viper with STR treads and glimmer cape (networth 3350). You have 891+171 =1062 hp. Magic resistance maxed = (1-.75*.75*.34) = 80.9%. So EHP against nukes = 5560.
level 11 Viper with STR treads and aghs (networth 5600 ). You have 891+171+190+200 = 1452 hp. Magic resistance maxed = (1-.75*.75) = 43.75%. So EHP against nukes =2581.
So vs nukes glimmer cape is fantastic, assuming you are not using abilities - ie using glimmer to run away after getting the kill.
With just the passive glimmer its total magic resist is only (1-.75*.75*.8) = 55% so EHP = 2360. But still this is as tough as aghs for half the cost.
I just wanna say that Shadow Blade/silver egde doesn't have much value on viper
SB/SE allows you to solo kill people who are alone, and farm more aggressively e.g. opponents jungle
because you don't have the burst to solo kill people on Viper (realistically) and there's no way to disengage if there's backup I don't think it's that good
Ok so we're going to build a tanky viper here, then best build is probably, treads, medallion, mek, glimmer cape, finish crest, aghs, heart? That just feels so lacking in dps though.
Mek still seems so good though by the math it seems bad to skip. Can you build a right click viper with phase, solar crest, ac? Will it work?
Or if you're doing a ganking viper, silver edge, aghs, crest? Is crest that great for ganking or not?
you want a tanky viper?....hhhmmm... i should try that
i always just go full damage builds.... something like aquilla-> treads (agi of course) ->aggs (as your ult is very useful and its CD becomes crazy low.....same reason i go aggs on lion) -> butterfly -> maybe a BKB if they have enough stuns to worry me/MKB-> manta
might replace the aquilla with say a MoM at some point or some other item depending on how the game replaces..... SNY....... maybe a shadow blade
this build gives you the single target damage for pick offs .......maybe it only works cause my MMR is artifically low atm so i can outplay my opposites in mid
Well viper doesn't scale as well as other agi carries if you go full on dmg. He's really good as a tanky 2 or 3 spot and constantly slowing the other team. He slows attack speed by 65 with poison and skin debuffs, it's quite a bit, so staying alive longer lets you slow enemy carries that much more.
However I like phase boots more than treads usually just cus they let you dive towers at 6. You can run up on any enemy that doesn't have an escape and poison them, ult them, chase them to tower and they die. He's one of the easiest heroes to kill dumb snipers on, but it's much hard if you go treads. Plus his harass with phase boots and nethertoxin and posion is just nasty.
Well its rather complicated to make general statements about Viper's dps because it changes every single attack depending on exactly how much hp, armor, and magic resistance the target has.
But we can look at a couple examples. Consider the difference attacking a level 11 Centaur with solar crest, vs with aghs (similar networth).
Level 11 Centaur has tranquils, blink, and a chain mail. So he starts with 1309 hp and 10.9 armor, 25% magic resistance. His ult is on cd so he can't really do anything here but get kited or chased. For the sake of simplicity I will ignore the few hp centaur will heal during the attack, tranquils are disabled anyway. Also for simplicity I will ignore the likelihood of return triggering corrosive skin...pretend one or the other is not leveled. It's enough of a mess already.
With Aghs
0 seconds
Viper strike does 75 dmg, Attack dmg 89 + 10 (nether toxin) => 60 dmg (with armor). Attack time is .91 sec.
Centaur drops to 1174.
.91 sec Attack dmg 89 + 10 => 60 dmg. Centaur drops to 1114.
1 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg, Centaur drops to 1039.
1.82 sec Attack dmg 89 + 20 => 66 dmg. Centaur drops to 973.
1.91 sec Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 952.
2 sec Viper Strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 877.
2.73 sec Attack dmg 89+ 20 => 66 dmg. Centaur drops to 811.
2.91 sec Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 790.
3 sec Viper Strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 715.
3.64 Attack dmg 89 +40 => 78 dmg, Centaur drops to 637.
3.73 Poison attack does 21 dmg, Centaur drops to 616.
4 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg, Centaur drops to 541.
4.55 sec Attack dmg 89 + 80 => 102 dmg, Centaur drops to 439.
4.64 Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 418.
5 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 343.
5.46 sec Attack does 89+ 80 => 102 dmg, Centaur drops to 241.
5.55 Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 220.
6.37 Attack dmg 89 + 160 => 151 dmg. Centaur drops to 69.
6.46 Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 48.
7.28 sec Final attack kills Centaur.
With Solar Crest Centaur gets only 0.9 armor and dies much faster.
0 seconds
Viper strike does 75 dmg, Attack dmg 89 + 10 (nether toxin) => 94 dmg (with armor). Attack time is .91 sec.
Centaur drops to 1140.
.91 sec Attack dmg 89 + 10 => 94 dmg. Centaur drops to 1046.
1 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg, Poisen attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 950.
1.82 sec Attack dmg 89 + 20 => 104 dmg. Centaur drops to 846.
1.91 sec Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 825.
2 sec Viper Strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 750.
2.73 sec Attack dmg 89+ 40 =>123 dmg. Centaur drops to 627.
2.91 sec Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 606.
3 sec Viper Strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 531.
3.64 Attack dmg 89 +80 => 161 dmg, Centaur drops to 370.
3.73 Poison attack does 21 dmg, Centaur drops to 349.
4 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg, Centaur drops to 274.
4.55 sec Attack dmg 89 + 80 => 161 dmg, Centaur drops to 113.
4.64 Poison attack does 21 dmg. Centaur drops to 92.
5 sec Viper strike does 75 dmg. Centaur drops to 17.
5.46 sec Attack kills Centaur.
Corrosive skin would tick him down a bit faster, but probably Viper does not perfectly orb-walk either so attack dmg hits a little later. The point is Solar Crest kills Centaur almost 2 full seconds sooner than Aghs. This can be very important if someone is trying to tp in to help him.
That's why I love you relentless. Your commitment to this level of detail is astounding. So solar crest, great item as I suspected.
Definitely going to try: treads, medallion, mek, crest, glimmer cape, aghs/ac/heart next game on viper.
I might be retarded but why meka viper? this build is so old... and meka costs like half your mana pool on a hero with no mana regen that needs mana to right click
you can just buy Urn, Bottle, or some lifesteal
Phase -> Yasha -> Solar Crest -> SnY -> Aghs is a decent build imo, you can add an optional blink/SB
^its an old build i guess. at the same time it can be useful, if u can get it without a struggle. its a deathball commitment and takes some pressure off the supports who might need some other items and will build arcanes for u.
solar crest is an insane anti carry item. perfect for pos 3 or 4. -3 armor and +25% mana reg more than MoC,+5% more miss than ToE. And no recipe cost? You get sooo much for soooo little. its like everyone is suddenly fuckin PA. it will be nerfed soon. im sure of it. u must go MKB w any manfighter these days.
Viper hardly ever uses mana points. To kill that Centaur with Solar Crest took 175 + 6*20 = 295 mp. Level 11 Viper has 429 mp with no items. If he had a mech, it gives 5 INT, tread switch to INT gives 9 more so he is up to 611 mp. He could easily still use the Mech. If you do go Aghs, that's another 280mp.
As for regen, bottle is best for flexibility. But if you want to go the low skill route - Level 11 Viper with Mech, INT treads has regen of 1.89 mp/s. If you add a Solar Crest that goes up to 3.31, so it takes Viper 68 seconds to recover the mana to use mech. Mech cd is 45 sec anyway. He is not an ideal mech carrier, but the value of mech comes in getting it early. During the first 20 minutes of a game your team instantly gaining 250 hp is a won fight. Later when carries can take that back down in one attack, mech sucks.
So get it early or don't get it on viper. Late game Mech is still important for sieges so your creeps don't die too fast to take the T3. But supports can afford it by then.
Another point to consider, Mech on Viper is very strong against nukes as well, because his magic resistance is already so high. Mech Restore is worth 571 EHP on Viper vs nukes. If you want to gank Lina, or Lion, you will be happy to have that Mech to cancel out their ult dmg.
Don't think the cape is that strong on viper...mana cost is too intense.
I would not call myself a viper player, but I don't think the item build changes much besides adding the super lothars in the mix.
Take your pick from
treads/mek/sny/manta/superlothars/mkb/bkb/aghs/bfly/heart/bots, or maybe the ultility blink/silence/sheep/shivas if your team needs it.
People who have mana issues on viper are the ones who leave poison on auto cast then wonder why they're oom all the time. You should manually cast it unless it's a super chaotic team fight where you just can't do it, or a gank where you can't afford to miss one.
Mek is good for the stats too. It's half of what drums gives with a lot more armor.
Don't forget to build aquila on viper in the early game. I see a lot of viper players skip this item, which is helpful for laning phase and mana regen.
seems like manta is better late game simply because your illusions are based off your stats
butterfly -> manta imo
as for aquilla i find its a very useful item for viper...abit extra early game damage gives you the abillity to push the lane earlier allowing you to take the t1 tower faster (nethertoxin makes this fairly easy tbh) but most importantly it gives you that crucial mana regen
also timberwolf once you play a few games with that build tell us how it works will ya?:P
also should we talk about skill builds?
You don't need aquila if going medallion, it provides same benefits (mana regen and armor). I usually go one tangoes and a wraith band for extra stats. Although I might just go branches and a ring of regen now for headress.
Skill builds depends on a ton of factors so it's even more subjective I feel. If going to medallion into crest build nethertoxin early is a must to get maximum benefit. Like that one game I posted, I went 1/4/1/1 at lvl 7. I was hitting like a truck with phase boots and medallion debuf, taking out qop from 1/2 hp with like 2 hits.
If you're playing mid with a normal build you usually go something like 3/1/1/1 cus poison adds 12 more dmg per level for a one hit harass vs nethertoxin which only adds more than that if they're under 40% and most likely they won't sit in lane vs a viper under 40%, that's just asking to be dived. One point in toxin helps a lot for last hitting and one point in skin for returning dmg when they harass you. Sometimes you want to put more in skin like vs a sniper, qop or silencer who will harass a lot from range and with spells. You want to make them actually take equal or more dmg when they shrapnel/dagger/curse you. But vs like a melee like dk or pudge I wouldn't even spec skin, just max out posion and toxin.
Start game with Headdress, buy Magic Wand, Boots, Vlad, Shadow Blade, Silver Edge,- end game. =)
Holy shit I just thought of drow with new vlads allowing lifestealer with frost arrows plus damage boost a lot due to high base dAmage. Btw can slark purge the debuff from his crest like medallion
It worked pretty well. Safe lane which is really unusual. But we were down pretty big, I gave up first blood getting a rune cus nyx stun so long =( but I got back some kills. I rushed mek this time, then medallion. With just those two I was scoring kills pretty easily. Final stats might not really show how much I crushed the mid game with this build but lina started 0-4 in her offlane, sniper was something like 1-4-1 before I turned it up and hit 8-3-2 or something like that. Your farm on viper just falls off super hard late cus he is slow as shit and doesn't farm well.
Went phase, mek, medallion, aghs, crest, ac, butterfly. Enemy team never wised up and went for mkbs. My ehp vs their right click was something nuts like 17000 with just 2k hp.
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There are three new very intriguing items for viper imo:
Solar crest- Viper's agi gain is only so-so for an agi hero so armor and evasion help him a lot and the debuff combined with nethertoxin can hit hard. But it kinda goes against convential viper builds cus you are building for right click and not sustained poison dmg.
Silver edge- An obvious extension of shadow blade build. The extra hp is just what viper needs, and the break effects and dmg reduction go really well with the rest of his skill set as an anti carry.
Glimmer cape- Make him even more tanky vs magic. Gives him passively around 52% reduction vs 43% with just skin maxed. I took like 275 ish dmg from a rank 1 lion ult in a match lol. It was pretty awesome. The attack speed is also VERY welcome since I loved phase boots on viper and it's hard to find good attack speed items on him.
In practice though what's the ideal build? I found not rushing aghs my hp was super fucking low all game. It just takes to long to build an end game heart. I tried to stack that - armor in this match going crest, glimmer cape, ac, with a heart as my end game http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1442778084 but it took too much farm. I was hitting super fucking hard early though as I maxed nethertoxin by level 7 and was debuffing with medallion. It's pretty sweet just not sure if it's great long term.
Another game I went silver edge. The hp was great, but again I still felt like aghs was needed. Plus I still went crest, which maybe isn't that good.
So I'm really conflicted on what to rush. Used to be super straightforward, mek, aghs, heart or butterfly. Throw in a shadowblade at your leisure. I have no idea what to build him for now.