General DiscussionThe new "fountain hook"

Pretty sure it was wisp and magnus.

How recently have you seen this done, I have a memory of this being fixed in 6.81, but I could just be going crazy.

I've seen it in a video, sent me by a friend. I've gotta talk to him and ask him to send me the link again. Also I didn't know it can work with wisp also, but its still nice.

rly u have to ask friend for link ?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=+Magnus+can+skewer+enemies+into+the+fountain

Isnt this really old news? Like 1-2 years back?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_J2Dba9PHs

This was patched an eternity ago. (I just tested it now, to be sure though)

i've seen this with kunkka and magnus, but that was a while ago.

I tried this a while ago(current patch), its either patched or extremely hard to pull off.

They must have patched it. Cant believe navi was allowed to cheat at ti3 and get away with it. Good thing Alliance won.

^
Navi didn't cheat, they used a mechanic within the game that was very hard to pull off.

In all honesty, the fountain hooks were very skillful on navi's part.

Also, did they change how the game works, no, then it isn't cheating.

They were getting crushed that game so the resorted to cheating tactics to claw their way back....They cheated 100%....Im sure the Navi players know they cheated more than anyone. The only people that don't think they cheated are ignorant fans. Navi knows what they did for sure.

They abused a game mechanic that wasn't supposed to work that way. And now its fixed.

@Admiral Love Handle

Sorry for the rushed text but I'm at hockey camp for the week and am using a mobile device
If what Natus Vincere did was cheating, wouldn't they get DQ'd or something?

People like ALH are the same sort of people who whine about "unfair" tactics in fighting games and refuse to play with people who don't agree to limit themselves to "fair" characters. You're operating in some sort of fantasy land where game mechanics and tournament rules aren't the only arbiter of what is and is not okay. Where there's some moral aspect to playing a video game a certain way, avoiding Zerg Rush in SC, Morrigan/Doom in UMVC3, etc.

In other words, a self-defeating loser who has rationalized his inability to win into some sort of moral high ground.

heck no ti3 was the biggest event in esports history and navi is one of the fan favorites....If you are in valves shoes what do you do? Nothing....You are trying to promote your game....Just move on and ptach it later.

They abused a game mechanic....the mechanic was in the game although it wasn't meant to be. And now its fixed.

I guess you cant really say they cheated but they abused a game mechanic which is pretty much the same thing. Im sure all the pro dota players and especially navi knew what they did. They were on the brink of elimination and had to resort to what in my opinion was cheating.

Havent u guys played other games like WoW? Where you are doing rated BGS and people exploit game mechanics to win? Just because its in the game doesn't mean its allowed.

I'll give you a WoW mechanic example from the olden days of Vanilla and Burning Crusade when I played:

Hunters had an ability called Feign Death that removed all aggro from themselves by dropping them completely out of combat. Hunters had other abilities called Traps with an instant cast time that could only be used outside of combat. So, in PvP, you could Feign Death and immediately Freezing Trap, instantly stunning an enemy that was in melee range of you. It was clearly unintended (the devs admitted it). And they ruled it..."a clever use of game mechanics" (exact quote) and let it sit until they removed the out-of-combat requirement for traps years later.

Everything that can be done in the game that is not expressly forbidden as part of the rules is allowed. That's how video games work.

Here's an interview with Puppey on the Fountain Hook game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOWShzqF8Ww

Skip to 3:20 to hear him talk about his opinion of the legality of Fountain Hooking. Basically his point is: yeah, it's totally a bug. But there's a ton of bugs in Dota that people abuse; what are you going to do, just pretend they don't exist and lose to them?

I mean, Alliance were the biggest exploiters of the LD armlet bug because LD is one of Bulldog's three heroes.

Edit: Forgot the interview link XD

The fact that they patched it means it wasn't really allowed they just abused a game mechanic. They were getting crushed that game...They hooked a gyro with aegis into the fountain to kill him twice I believe. What scum. That's not dota.....

Atleast one thing we can agree on is that they abused a game mechanic. You don't have to call it cheating but there was no way they would have won that game if they actually played within the perimeters of the game. Disgusting display of dota....borderline cheating at one of the biggest esports events of all time.

It was a bug (announced by Valve, who said it was too funny to fix), but then fixed it right after Na'Vi abused the bug. I am 100% sure that Valve didn't want any pros abusing bugs at TI, and that's why they fixed a bug they refused to for 3 years. If Na'Vi did the infinite Brewmaster ulti bug, would that also not be cheating simply because it's a "mechanic in the game"?

Not cheating unless the tournament rules forbid it.

The thing is, once you start saying people are "cheating" for violating unstated, unspecified rules, you open up a whole lot of grey area because holy shit Dota is a buggy game. Doesn't that mean Alliance cheated by running Lone Druid with Armlet a lot? (Armlet didn't drain the bear's health; they patched that before TI3 but Alliance and a number of other teams used it heavily in other tournamentsl). Was playing Timbersaw cheating because his chain was supposed to be interruped by stuns and wasn't? What about how OD's Astral Imprisonment wasn't restoring the right amount of mana after the debuff wore off, or how Power Cogs had too much night vision, or how the LD bear had too much day vision?

Those were all *bugs*. They were not functioning as intended. Is everyone who played one of those heroes a cheater?

No. That's silly. You have to take the game as it is. If you feel that a bug is so game-breaking that it completely destroys balance, then you can ban it out in the tournament rules. But other than that? Just picking and choosing which bugs are "cheating" after players have already done them in-game is completely arbitrary and even more unfair than whatever bug they were using anyway.

Edit: Fixed statement about LD and Armlet.

true... good point. i agree with hardore ^_^

Navi abused a game mechanic to win game they couldn't possibly have won. That's cheating. Plain and simple.

Navi knows it too. They know better than anyone what they did. Abusing a game mechanic in the highest level of esports. What a disgrace.

In the highest lvl of esports you don't expect teams to use "bugs" to win..... How can anyone defend this?

SMH.

^Because it wasn't unfair, since anyone could do it and everyone knew it could happen.

No one would disgrace themselves that much to start abusing game mechanics. That's why not anyone or every1 would do it. Jus navi. They disgraced themselves alone. No one else abused it because only rotten trash would do something that low. Navi.

But, just as Hardcore said, everyone abused mechanics. Lone Druid with Armlet was abused by a lot of teams, it isn't Na'Vi's fault that nobody else did fountain hooks.

There may have been some things that needed changing like LD armlet and some heroes having vision and such but that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much different than abusing a mechanic that literally changes the course of a game. They planned their abuse. That is so much different.

Premeditated abuse.

they said it wasnt planned in an interview, you can make whatever uneducated assumptions you want, but it was something their opponents failed to do that cost them the game, not navi abusing a bug.

lol no. Of course it wasn't part of the plan when they started the game. They tried to win fare and square and got their asses beat so they resorted to plan B which they obviously knew very well. They tried to win in the basic concept of dota and they failed so they resorted to cheating. aka plan B. And LOL if you think that navi could have won without abusing a bug. It was not their opponents fault. They hooked a gyro with aegis and killed him twice in the fountain ffs. Their was no way they could have won that game without cheating.

I believe that they didn't have the intention of fountain hooking when they started the game. But they obviously knew they had this up their sleeve. And when they started getting their ass kicked they resorted to abusing game mechanics to give them the edge.

Geez dude, they can't abuse it anymore and they were rekt in the last International, satisfied?. It's in the past, don't keep on crying over it and just move the fuck on. Navi haters and Navi fanboys...different whine, but same shit.

Im not a navi hater nor were they wrecked in the international. Your comment provides no substance to this thread. Only a post that complains about the people having a discussion. Some1 who cries about a discussion and provides nothing to the discussion is worse than the debate itself.

^
>was not wreaked in international
>got beat in the first round of losers bracket
>doyouevendota.png

I don't think mastadoom watched ti3. Because that what the discussion is about.

>" they were rekt in the last International"
>"Im not a navi hater nor were they wrecked in the international"
>"[navi] got beat in the first round of losers bracket"
>"I don't think mastadoom watched ti3. Because that what the discussion is about."
>mfw

@alh don't you wanna also slit his throat because he doesn't agree with you?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem

Stacking camps is also technically a bug, but is that cheating?

^Nope, it's a mechanic. Confirmed by Volvo

^
It was a bug from WC3's engine, was considered a mechanic later because it gave depth to the gameplay. (Not sure if you were being sarcastic).

@Admiral: You're talking like they pressed one button to win the game. Fountain hooks were one of the biggest display of individual skill and teamwork, they were incredibly hard to pull off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ba9nCot71w
You do whatever you need in order to win, even if that means abusing stronger heroes and/or bugs/unintended mechanics. During TI3 Batrider was borderline broken and every single team abused him. Back in the day pros abused Undying's dmg bug, Ld's armlet, SS rosh wards, etc. A win is a win, there's no other rules than the code of the game itself.

^
Didn't phrase it as sarcasm, but I was trying to make the same point. Camp stacking is an integral part of competitive DotA, but yes, it IS a BUG carried over from the old engine.

"In the highest lvl of esports you don't expect teams to use "bugs" to win..... How can anyone defend this?" - ALH

It used to be a bug, but Valve said it will remain in the game as a mechanic instead of being added to the known bugs list, so it's not a bug.