General DiscussionTerrorblade players - looking for high MMR replays, farming efficency

they dont exist

Here's another well known http://dotabuff.com/players/68379658/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration=

If you'll go with manta in using my wood build, then you need aquila, otherwise you will lack of mana all the time, or will not be able to affoard the mana cost of manta.

Matrice - what do u think about making aquilla & 1 wraiths instead 3 wraiths ? Or do u think with Manta it's better to go 2 wraiths & Aquilla?

i have uploaded a matrice's replay a few days ago, search for it

zenoth is skilled as TB aswell

I wrote it in the linked thread, the 2 circlet + quelling blade starting is just not doing the trick early compare to circlet + 3 slippers, and then i've some timing move to do, and if i buy aquila, i'm not getting my alacrity blade, which is thus way worst, and after getting travel, aquila is no longer needed anyway

I start in lane more often than matrice and rush the aquila to push the tower down easier, then transition into the woods build letting my supports control/farm the safe lane.

my latest game as tb has 16 last hits per minute and 1k+ gpm so I guess you can observe to see farming patterns and what not

generally quelling blade and efficient a-click movements while remembering to stack and knowing how much you need to clear stack/ancients (e.g. lvl 8 tb without reflect can clear ancients with almost no hp loss, 2 stack barely possible with stout and 3 onwards needing meta and kiting.)

Ty for advices. I'm getting better at this hero. I'm 3-3.5k noob & still making more than 12lh/min is a dream for me, but a little closer one after watching your replayes :)

Started in the jungle :
http://dotabuff.com/matches/783037730

5.1k here, 82% winrate with tb

My advice, if your team can give you room, start with aquila+brown boots, farm 12 min radi and go naga style split push farm after BoT is done, follow it with Manta and Skadi, works out best for me. ( pick a game where you see radi build http://dotabuff.com/players/90896293/matches?date=&faction=&hero=terrorblade&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration= )

If not, Sange and Yasha might sound a bit noobish due to core items suggestion menu, but believe me, its a lifesaver especially if you get sange first, will help you survive early aggressive game, and you can dish out decent amount of damage. Also 16% MS is priceless, and main chance never hurt anyone, http://dotabuff.com/matches/778060275 example for this...my team was downright terrible. One of those 1500 rating difference games where you literally play solo.

And ik most ppl prefer Pt ( for toggle spam illus etc..) or BoT, but if you fight early, phase boots are amazing. You can get in ppls faces and slow them down.

1 more advice, if you can convince them to pick venge, it synergizes amazing, especailly later with 36% bonus dmg from aura ( Tb has high base dmg in meta, giving him 70+ dmg from aura later on)

Hope it helps

everytime i watch a zenoth TB replay i find it so easy to reproduce
then i try to reproduce and its like "fuck this shit GG boyz"

Radiance is generally a horrible item on terrorblade...

Terrorblade is the GOD of farming, with just stats alone he can farm at a pace nearly equal to Radiance Naga. Why would you want to spend 5k+ gold on an item that marginally improves that farming prowess while delaying core items that improve his tankiness and tower pushing ability?

For the same reason you make it on naga, if you go for pushing tb without it, you need to commit ur hero fully as well as illusions.
With it, you can have hero in forest, 1 illu pushing top and 1 pushing mid. If you micro it well, you can stack 1 camp while farming another. Its all about making sure lane is pushed so when you see fight breaking out, you BoT on the lane and wreck the rax.

If you make it at 12-15 min, it doesnt delay ur core items, since farm increases.

Breaking it down, 50 burn dmg per sec on 2 or 3 creeps, thats 150 dmg/sec only from illu on the creeps and thats just if you micro illu to stay alive and dont actaully hit creeps. There is no way one illu on its own can farm that fast without radi.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/783134037

my last game

i average 14 last hits / minute on terrorblade without radiance, which is already close to the maximum you can reasonably get from the map

for comparison in http://dotabuff.com/matches/774622831, the legendary burning RAT NAGA against Cloud9's Meepo, Burning got 14.5 last hits per minute. This is one of the best Nagas in the world, and a TB without having to invest into such a giant gold sink can easily get a comparable creep kill rate.

a radiance isnt going to boost that by much, and tb relies heavily on stat items to boost his farm significantly at the early stages of the game, which means that saving up for that giant gold sink is going to hurt his GPM heavily in the first 15-20 minutes.

furthermore the stats make a humongous difference, building early stats lets you finish a t1 tower at 10 minutes in 9 seconds. Saving up for a Radiance takes you literally twice as long to kill the same tower, along with making you less tanky and incapable of joining fights or pushing lanes until much later in the game.

zenoth what would you do if you dont have supps to stack for you and all your other lanes are losing hard? how to play from behind as TB?

i never have supports to stack for me lol, i always stack myself most of the time, tb doesn't really fare too well with stacks early on anyway

half of my tb games are playing from behind, farming is just finding space, be it enemy jungle, enemy ancient, cutting waves, etc, you have to play alot and find the feel.

the thing about TB is that it guarantees a fast win if your other lanes do fine, if they suck shit then you have a pretty decent chance of eventually ratting to victory, which is nice

Quelling blade is what im not used to have but its great item, definitely adding on my build since it works on illus as well.

As for that game, you had space, ur teammates werent useless, ur lina kinda dominated. You could afford to commit fully to one lane when you wanted to push it, and you fought little, hence ur low Hero dmg ( I didnt watch the game, sorry if i analyzed wrong) , and ik TB is best pusher in game, but im talking about games where you have to do everything, check my games, Highest hero dmg in team, and same TD as urs.

Im not saying ur build is inferior to mine, both are good, just diff style of playing.

Most important thing: You must agree that radi puts such pressure on lanes that it requires a response often, and its ridiculous to watch ppl trying to kill ur illu and chasing it around while you kite them next to creeps, unless they use some spells and you can still move out and keep them playing with ur illu for long enough to give ur team space, then just send a new one and repeat. Only reason why i prefer radi.

Btw if you gonna fight early, i stated radi is not best choice, i gave example for that. http://dotabuff.com/matches/778060275

and i apologize for this but im saying that radiance is generally an inferior item, in my Terrorblade games my team suck shit half the time and I still can get a generally similar amount of farm

http://dotabuff.com/matches/757968841

http://dotabuff.com/matches/756385266

http://dotabuff.com/matches/754377335

these are just a few examples from my first page of TB games, there are more extreme ones where my team is down 30k exp at one point, but i still can average close to 14 last hits per minute

radiance would have simply delayed my split pushing so much that in these games i would probably never have a chance to even complete it and buy enough time to get big and out push my opponents

How u do dis zenoth

If i knew how to farm that much in my games i would probably be at 4k in 3 days or something

I watch the replays but still :/

That is why i said we play different styles, you are all about balancing between farm and split pushing, look in any of my tb games, i have highest Hero and Tower damage, mine is balance between farming, fighting and pushing..

And its also a surprize factor, if you wreck them one fight, and next one they expect you and prepare for you, but you decide to leave ur team 4v5 and go rax, unless 2 or sometimes even 3 of them TP and abandon that fight, you will easily overcome them and take rax.

We both know one tp Cant stop TB.

Make sure you tell ur team to interrupt TPs and keep fight lasting as long as possible.

But your point contradicts yourself. Radiance is an item that is almost exclusively for farming and pushing, and you don't get it when you are balancing fighting as well. So we don't disagree on that.

What I have shown you is that Radiance is unnecessary when balancing solely between farming and pushing, which is the point you tried to make earlier.

There is no contradiction whatsoever, Radiance gives you enough farm that you are useful in fights at min 25.

You can easly have radi, manta and 2 ultimate orbs by that time, which make you very useful in encounters.

Purpose of radi is to farm early game, but ofc you will have sufficient farm at some point to join fights, its not exclusively for split pushing and farming.

Btw, phrase Almost exclusively doesnt exist, its either almost, or exclusively (Not allowing something else; incompatible) meaning of the word, so it never goes together with Almost.

it is used in various forms of media. https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=%22almost+exclusively%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=Y1LJU9iaJuyL8QfAqoAQ

there is no contradiction, it is synonymous with "almost always" - there are very few exceptions, such as spectre for hero damage, and as an english major i fail to see how it is wrong

"almost" is an adverb applicable here without breaking the syntactic structure nor the semantics of the phrase - as opposed to being exclusive, it is nearly exclusive - just like you can say "almost everything" although everything is a similarly absolute term.

what i have shown you is that i can farm more than that without radiance in 25 minutes, with far less risk since i dont have to commit such a large part of my farm to a big item with useless parts, which in turns makes me more useful in encounters, making your point about accelerating farm with radiance a moot point

Did you even click on any of those search results you linked? I wont linger on it anyway...

In my previous post i stated main reason why i would build radiance.

" Most important thing: You must agree that radi puts such pressure on lanes that it requires a response often, and its ridiculous to watch ppl trying to kill ur illu and chasing it around while you kite them next to creeps, unless they use some spells and you can still move out and keep them playing with ur illu for long enough to give ur team space, then just send a new one and repeat. Only reason why i prefer radi. "

And how do you say you are more useful in encounters when in ur every tb game you have low hero damage, random low K/A comapred to ur team, and mass TD.

I didnt say who can farm more with what build, but how it effects progress of the game.

We both manage to win, thats important ^^

That's a playstyle difference.

Let me break down your argument this way:

1) Radiance pushes lanes
2) Radiance gets you more farm

And my response is as such - without Radiance I can get as much farm, and push lanes as well. I have the stats to back that up.

Your next point:

1) My tb has low hero damage, therefore irrelevant

My point - your argument is not relevant to my response above. I have shown you that I can get similar or more farm without Radiance, how I choose to use that farm is my style of playing. You may use that farm to engage more, while I use the farm to push. The bottom line is that it doesn't change the fact that Radiance is generally an inferior choice.

without radiance you can have huge lane pressure power (even more with zenoth's build than mine actually) and still get a lot of hero damage. I still suspect that a lot of your heroes damage, comes from random encounter on lane from your illu against hero, in short damage that doesn't count.

In addition, naga without radiance cann't farm nearly as fast as the one without radiance, while it's not true for tb.

AiuSan - of course u will have higher hero dmg with radiance than without it playing rat style. When someone comes to counter push he will get burn dmg. If u're not building radiance most likely u will focus creeps instead heroes with illusion. I'm not impressed with your lh/min with Radiance. Tbh it's not higher than normal not flash farming carry (like TB & Naga). I don't see a reason for u to build radiance & get such low farm. Only reason to build it, is to annoy & hurt ur enemies trying to counter push, but is it really worth it ?

And you came back to what i said in every post i made, which is, we just have a different play style and both result in winning more than losing.

You take it all as argument, and too serious, when it was simply conversation about different builds and how they affect the game.

I also said earlier, not every game is suitable for radi, but there are certain cases where it is quite useful ( Blink disable, any damage trigger pros/cons ). I play both with radi and without, while you never use it. I assume you tried it out and didnt work out for you, which is fine, diff play style...lets drop it.

In my opinion its worth it coz it gives ur team more space.

Interested to see how will it be played competitive.

Since when is being a nuisance a bad thing :)

Imprecis, High hero damage comes at cost of some lasthits...Usually in my games i dont have too much space to farm ( My teammates clearing jungle and lanes ) I repeat many times, group as 4, look for pickoffs, try push one lane. Easier said than done sometimes.

Im surprised you gave such low comment matric, full of prejudice...you didnt do ur homework this time.

Check games where i didnt build radi, hero damage is still highest in team as well as tower damage.

1 more thing Imprecis, how do you expect me to have mass lasthits in games where i have most kills in team....i agree some of my games, lasthit count is low , but when you look at kills/assist IT IS OBVIOUS THAT I WASNT FARMING.

do you want to cry yet?

"Check games where i didnt build radi, hero damage is still highest in team as well as tower damage."

You just wrote yourself how bad radiance build is.

i see no point in getting radiance actually
but who cares i suck

would any of you coach me while i play TB? i get really lost sometimes :<

why having more butterflies is better than skadis? or is it not? How do you guys assess this?

Stop writting man plz...ik you are 6.5k balblabla, but if you dont even read entire conversation before deciding to bitch someone for one part of it, then better if you stay silent. Read first post of mine. I never said radi is ultimate build, i implied its situationally good.

the problem is that your argument is that it is situationally good because it accelerates your farm and push out lanes more

you refuse to accept the fact that tb is at least as good at farming and pushing out lanes WITHOUT radiance by actually spending that money on something useful

and then you write how bad radiance build is, so you are killing your own "stuff", while never giving a single good shot about it's "good" part, since it's not superior to the no radiance build in "all the good part" you mentionned.

Having several butterflies is giving the most physical ehp and slightly more dps to illusion (and giving MUCH more to the main tb)
I personnaly don't like it much -i'd rather take a daedalus than the 3rd butter- but against building, as long as your hero is also taking part in the building split destroying, nothing is better.

Btw zenoth, your should mb give a try to one eb instead of the third butter, it's slightly better for illusion, and with soooo much agi, it's a funny dagon (i didn't checked your games, so dunno how much your hero take part of the split push, it might work slghtly better if you only clean building with illu)

Edit: ninjaed by zenoth :)
I would even add more, radiance doesn't accelerate the farm, cause
1) it decelerate it BY FUCKING SHIT LOAD till you get radiance,
2) you get a bit faster for few min, but well, you are so much behind in farm (compare to the stats build, so didn't catched yet
3) then the full stats item start to become good enough to clean all the map as fast as radiance (you didn't reach the amount of farm of stats build yet.
4) then you need to sell that useless radiance. (but you were already behind in farm)

Well, was aiming to this all this time, look a little mind game we played.
Might cause some rage but here it is.

All this time, you were saying my build is inferior, but my winrate with the hero, hero damage, TD, and score speaks for itself, so if i change my build, will get even better results, 8k here i come.

I can say thank you for your compliments.

The mystery is why you want to support an item which you have only bought for 5 games so strongly

i'm really curious about how you managed to farm 16 creeps per min with no radiance.
or did you sell it?

edit: i didn't read the other posts so maybe i'm just being retarded here, ignore if it's the case

Previous post was a joke ofc...it implies i always use radi build.

I said its situational man...not mandatory..

What a hugantic, gynormous waste of time

and as me and matrice have been trying to get to you all this time, from our experience with playing this hero over hundreds of games Radiance is NEVER situationally good because other items offer better for less

but this point hasnt gotten to you after so many replies, you dodge it by saying oh its situationally good, oh your hero damage is lower than mine, yada yada

what a waste of time

Only reason why im stubborn, is coz it works out for me, and i play both builds.

Waste of time indeed so lets stop it.

The fact that it works doesn't mean it's optimal, which is the focus of this discussion.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/773590380
My team was utterly retarded and I raged, sold all my items (I was pretty rich early game), got like 2800g and spent all of that on dust which I dropped at base because they refused to buy some against 4 invis heroes. After that we lost raxes because they refused to carry a tp, so I took some dust, sold it and bought tps which I dropped for them to pick it up. Did it work? Yes, we won because we were able to kill enemies thanks to the dust and defend our towers thanks to the tps. Is it optimal? No.

The OP is asking for farming efficiency. Sure, the radiance build might work, but is it as cost efficient as matrice's/zenoth's build? No.

Thanks for the input Matrice. Also, do you think its valid to disassemble the s&y and build a manta late game?

I love this tread. Probably because of my tb winrate

radiance takes really long to build up no reason to get it if ur hero benefits from other item early game