I used to think 4 was good but then I improved my mechanics and realized anything less than 5-6 was bad in core lanes (carry/mid)
Doom has his bonus gold from his skills and usually has a midas so it could explain why. Anyway even with ganging (unless really excessive), you should be getting 5-6 a min. You should be getting 6-8 when you're dedicated to farming and ignoring gangs completely (terrorblade/am or flashfarmers like sf).
Because per initial minute theres 8 creeps to kill. 4 means you missed HALF of everything. The number itself increases to 10/12/etc a minute as well as being able to jungle so 5/6/7/8 is a lot more possible than it sounds.
Obviously depends on the hero...
depending on the hero, you have to know when to mana dump to increase farm, or when to save mana for team fight.
im usually at 6 or so when im playing void + 50 cs in a 2v2 lane/65 or so in a 2v1 @ 10 min. it should be a lot higher but since i go aghanims on the hero after a possible midas/mom/treads i end up looking for kills a lot more. i think its a bit more on the tinker but same thing ends up happening plus i try not to be a total dickhead and leave a good portion of the map for my team and sticking to ancients/enemy jungle.
sniper should be getting 5-6 depending on if you went blink/mjo both of which will boost farm potential a lot (i would)
i think getting 6-7 and having good kill participation usually results in a win (its assumed that your team didnt pick 4 carries or something)
but yeah your gpm numbers do look a tad low
and did you have to manually go in there and look at each game or was there an actual statistic cause i cant find any stats in the interface apart from going into games and doing the math
5 LH per minute is a decent amount for a laning core, you have to have at least 50 lh at the 10 mins mark otherwise you will fall far behind. Any more than that you can consider it "good" asuming that your lane is somewhat contested, because if you have free farm the number should be higher.
IMO that applies only to laning stage because sometimes you don't have the space to farm in mid game (constant 5 man fighting or ganking).
^ thats really vague; theres 3 laning cores and it differs a lot between offlane/mid/safelane farmer...but as a safelane farmer you need to get 50-55 out of lane even if its contested (your base damage as a melee hero/harass capability as a ranged hero should secure at least this much) but thats only in the laning stage...5 outside of the laning stage is pretty bad considering that there are more creeps spawning, jungles to take advantage of and empty lanes to take advantage of once heroes start roaming around.
denying is mostly creep equilibrium in safelane and to stop farm in mid, later it doesn't matter
Your CS should reflect the pace of the game, if your farming it should be high and fighting low
there is no "good cs" its biased on the hero and game...
Good CS is when you can snipe without scope and your desert eagle headshots everyone
if you're walking away with 50+ in 10 mins of farming the lane free or not you're doing decent. with complete free farm you should net around 70+ otherwise you need to work on last hitting
4 ck/min - minimum for any hero thats supposed to get farm
5 ck/min - decent for active gankers with no flashfarm (viper), minimum for carries
6 ck/min - decent for flashfarm semicarrys (storm, ember) but not always good if you're hardcarry
8 ck/min - good for hardcarry and flashfarming semicarrys
10 ck/min - overfarm
That's the numbers I aim for. Rarely end up with below 5 ck/min as a farming hero.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740778799
Here's my last game, 32 mins in total. I hit just under 6 cs/min with Jugger. It was a hard fighting game and I was in every team fight (most kills, highest hero damage, highest tower damage) that is what I would say is completely optimal in a pub game. If you're looking at higher than 6 cs/min then you're (probably) not helping your team out.
Of course it changes at each minute mark, later on in the game there are more creeps so naturally more cs to be scored per minute if there are big waves coming.
I had to manually open matches, it's not a stat for users but it is on the heroes tab to see for all heroes. I guess in the end gpm is most important. I average 563 with doom in ranked and 479 with sniper so both need some work I guess. I'm usually over 600 with doom in wins and 550 with sniper in wins, obviously losses drag that down. My sniper probably needs some work.
I usually say that anything less than ≈ 100 cs on 20 min is bad and you are unable to carry, after 20 min you need to focus on the fights mostly well unless you are a AFK-farming douchebag. all thought i must admit that sometimes the AFK-gameruining-farming-f**got wins the game sadly i have to admit that.
I mean there's a balance to it. I got pretty pissed off at my team this match. I was doom, we had shadow shaman on our team, enemy team had zero pushers but could easily kill us in a team fight if they got the jump. They had riki, bh and wk, drop a smoke bomb and they can kill both our supports in the open so we had to really pick our fights, even with stealth detection. So I suggested we simply farm safely and only push when serpent wards are up. I was doing ancients and our team got caught in the river, wiped, then they bitch at me for not being aggressive on doom. Happened multiple times when they engaged and I wasn't there cus I was farming. I wasn't just farming to farm, I was avoiding fights I didn't think we had any business fighting at the time. In retrospect I did lose us the game but not because of those engagement, because I made a couple crucial mistakes in lane in the first 10 mins and I got picked off by pudge at a terrible time at one of our rax.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/740092370
10+ is kind of needed on naga/antimage though
if you're on a carry hero you need to have 5-6 bare minimum...thats like 2 jungle camps every minute or 3/4 of one lanes farm every minute, not that hard to get honestly
50 the first 10 min in mid, at least for me, if i dont have it i flame myself and say gg to the other team
There are a total of 82 lane creeps in the first 10 minutes. 10 CS a minute is impossible on 10 min unless i'm missing something.
first 10 minutes you should aim for at least 6 per minute if you're just sitting in lane, but later on you should be able to farm much more quickly and you'll probably average the end of the game with 10 cs a minute or more.
What? 10 a min average end of game? Cus I do not see anyone doing that. Just glancing at people in here posting, most are averaging 5-6 for a whole game in a win, less on a fighting/ganking hero like a slark.
I think i might have in some game 10 cs a minute but i am not sure
anyway with TB or naga should be posible
Well yeah, that's what luna does. I was trying to determine if people throwing out 8,9,10 were talking about specific heroes or carries in general. Cus that seems awfully high for like sniper, wraith king, doom. Probably a good number to shoot for on tinker, luna, nature's, maybe shadow fiend.
I think saying 50 first 10 mins and 100 by 20 is a good number to shoot for then don't worry about it.
10cs per minute is what carry with flashfarm should aim at (discount first 10 minutes, cos waves have only 4,5 creeps).
You will rarely achieve that for several reasons:
1) supports generally can't zone out offlaner (they suck)
2) you rarely get uncontested farm
3) YOU suck (eg most carries actually can't lasthit correctly AND keep creep equilibrium at the same time).
Yesterday, I was supporting in defensive trilane, we zoned out enemy offlaner at level1 completely and split, secondary support went to stack&pull and I was zoning out offlaner. Then suddenly, double wave pushed into their tower. We told our carry to step it up and keep creep equilibrium and response was 'what is creep equilibrium, I just lasthit'. In fucking 4.5k mmr....
@AoeAoe
You're telling me that 4.5k mmr players are as bad at creep equilbrium or whatever as I am? I'm 1.8k mmr, does that mean i can become 4.5k player? (jk)
@FK.Unmerciful
You would be surprised how many people don't know basic mechanics (especially when they play for example supports and then random mid/carries).
But no, generally, people know their shit.
"1) supports generally can't zone out offlaner (they suck)
2) you rarely get uncontested farm"
That is so true, that's why whenever I talk about jungle doom being pretty good people flame me and talk about so much more farm in lane, but it's not realistic cus no supports ever zone out for you.
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4 a min? 5 a min? It's probably too dependant on the hero, with sniper I usually 5-5 1/2, but my gpm is less than on doom even though doom I'm usually more around 4 a min. But obviously doom has devour and I usually build midas. Then there's my wk, usually even less cs than 4 a min but I fight a lot more, higher kda, higher gpm overall.
What's the gauge and does it not really matter after a certain point when you should be fighting/pushing?
Edit: checked out the heroes tab and cs/10 mins there and wow, most people suck at last hitting I guess. My last few luna games over 6 a min, average luna is 4, and only a couple heroes over 4 a min. And do people not know what a deny even is? Only mid heroes have like any and it's all around 1 every 10 mins. I do like triple that and I do not deny enough.