General Discussiontinker suggestions...

better nerfs:

1. march deals no damage to heroes
2. laser doesnt make you miss

ez game tinker fixed

i think blink dagger getting buffed too much was a bad idea so maybe icefrog will revert it to 75 and then everything falls into place

^ no blink dagger was not the cuz its just that in d1 tinker couldnt ancients in d2 he can no1 knew how to abuse it , 75 mana wasnnt a really big deal or anything , + ur suggestions will break the hero to nothing imo

who cares dota will be better without him anyway

march should do magical damage not universal, so i agree with #2. i said this before a few days ago

1) March now only deals physcal damage are like 10hp can be destroyed and is destroyed on impact/damage, sort of like weaker versions of weaver's swarm.

2) laser miss duration rescaled from 3 to 0.25 .5 1 2

3) scale rearm to use up 80% mana instead of x amount. scaptor only shortens cooldown.

1) march being physical will keep him doing ancients but a bit slower + i think it will kinda destroy his farming early ( jungle or lanning creeps) + it will still go thro bkb

2) i think this will be huge nerf while rescaling it will make him have to lvl it early on if he doesnt he will sacrifice it

3) no really no , 80% of his mana making him use spells rearm go base

what i want is that he got a nerf but stays viable , not make him underpowered that no 1 uses , well its all only my opinion nothing more

problem with tinker is his march is too strong. 2 level 4 waves can decimate a push. No team is even needed to defend. ALso look how EE-CHan plays. He can push 2 lanes by just backdooring the creep wave before they get to the tier 3 towers. So have backdoor protection on creeps before they pass the last tower lul. :D

His rearm is too stronk. he can spazz a lot of spells, kill 2-3 heros die or buyback or just tp back to fight and spazz again. Only 2-3 heros can do it but not on the calibur of Tinker. I think only Ember spirit, Puck and weaver are the only ones, but with tinker he's in trees and never visible.

Yes tinker is totally OP way more than lycan.

ueheuheueheue, you people .....

having cd on rearm will be enough idk if 0.5 at maxed rearm is enough but it will slow his combo + march magical will be enough for march and imo laser missing should be nerfed really , but not removed , i mean at lvl 1 its 100% miss wtf xD

could tinker not actually farm ancients in dota 1, or was it simply that people didn't because they were unaware of mechanics?

according to these patch notes, farming ancients is intended
http://dota2.gamepedia.com/June_24,_2011_Patch
"Fixed Tinker's March of the Machines to properly hit magic immune units."

"rework rearm : it now does not trigger cooldown or use mana unless the spell is done ( just like nature prophet teleport ) rearm now have cooldown of 1.5 1 0.5"

that makes it a buff to him. i hope you're aware of the difference between extended cast time spells and channeled spells.

because it only costs mana when rearm has completed casting, that makes it a buff when it gets cancelled during fights for example, because he isn't now short of 350 mana. wasting 350 mana on tinker makes a huge differences, that's like 1 less dagon + hex casted on your team.

nerfs can be changes to his cast time, which also affects rearm's total cast time, as well as nerfing his other abilities, or changing the scaling of laser and/or rockets. keep march the way it is, keep his teamfight and farming ability strong, while nerfing some other aspect of the hero, this isn't league.

your change to laser's scaling is boring. the change to ember spirit's searing chains actually had some depth to it. it stuns for 1/2/2/3 seconds and does 80/120/240/300 damage

that means you get rank 2 and rank 4 of the spell for more disable time, and you get rank 3 of the spell for the added damage.
the change makes it less of a 1 point wonder and also there's a reason to get the 4th level in it instead of just the third.

with laser, every game there's only 1 or 2 points into it before laser and rocket are marched. so make a reason to get 3 or 4 points into it before rockets, for a 4-2-4 or 4-1-4 skill build instead of 1-4-4 or 2-2-4 into 2-4-4

so for example
damage: 40 / 140 / 260 / 400 pure (+100/120/140 per level)
blind : 2 / 2 / 2.5 / 3

the reason for getting rank 2 laser is the same - for the huge relative damage increase, but now you have a reason to get rank 3 or 4 laser earlier, for the increased blind, as well as the higher damage increase. rank 4 laser is virtually unchanged, just like searing chains.

you can keep laser at 1 or 2, because the usage is the same, the blind while last hitting, but they'll be slightly worse than they were previously.

other ways to nerf are to alter the cast range per level, or the cooldown so that maxing Q while in lane might become viable, or alter the mana cost of the spell at every level.

you could change missile to fire 3 rockets instead, but deal less damage per rocket, and possibly increase laser damage. that makes laser worth getting over rockets for single target damage, because the damage difference between equally levelled rockets and lasers is only 24 HP per level.

so lets say they deal instead 70 / 120 / 170 / 220, total damage if they hit 3 people is 210 / 360 / 510 / 660.

it nerfs rocket anti-push harassment if there is only 2 enemy heroes in a lane, but in bigger fights it's aoe damage is basically unchanged.

aghanim's can add 2 extra rockets instead of doubling the number of rockets from 3 to 5. the relative increase in damage that aghs provides to rocket is lessened, as going from 2 to 4 rockets is a 100% increase, but only a 66% increase when going from 3 to 5 rockets.

also with laser damage increased and missile's damage decreased to a single target, the max laser + rocket build's damage is largely unaffected.

320 pure + 325 magic = 564 HP removed, assuming 25% MR
400 pure + 220 magic = 565 HP removed, again assuming 25% MR of most heroes.

if march has to be nerfed, then it'd be increasing it's cooldown to maybe 40 seconds so that only nerfs it when used while laning. e.g. time it wrong and you won't have it in time to either stack ancients or to push out the wave, while still keeping it's strength in later fights.

He is not going to get nerfed unless he is top pick ban in TI ( and actually wins the games )

I am sure about this

also your rework of rearm is pointless for the last level since tinker has a 0.5s backswing after rearm has finished casting, so that the spell is going to be off cooldown before tinker can do anything anyway. should cast backswing be cancelled, tinker still needs to cast spells before rearming. as soon as you rearm you are likely going to cast march, which has a 0.53s frontswing, so again rearm is going to be off cooldown by the time you need to cast it anyway.

not that tinker needs a nerf anyways, these are just ways that you could nerf him instead of the 10 seconds of thought that everyone else has put in.

tinker doesnt need a nerf; the hero is great in pubs because people seem to refuse to just shut the hero down (by picking axe, nyx, clock, pudge, legion, tusk, doom, panda, beastmaster) or lock him down.

hes also incredibly fragile early on which isnt taken advantage of often enough in pubs; lanes tend to remain static long enough for a tinker to get his bots up and running at which point its hard (but still not impossible) to deal with him. but once he gets a blink ur basically fked no matter what if the timing is reasonable.

the hero is used a lot in pubs by pros from what ive seen but isnt used all that frequently in legit matches for the same reason, if people make a commitment to shut him down you can win the entire game off of that because tinker takes up half the farm or more on the map which cripples the rest of the team, particularly the carry but also the supports.

just make TP unrearmable if you don't want tinker in the game.

Geez.

Why would you nerf a hero that has an abysmal winrate in both pubs and competitive? It makes no sense.
All that OP-ness collective thinking comes from the fact that his wins are stomps, but everybody seems to forget that his losses are stomps too.
He's pretty much like any snowballer (think about Slark, TA, etc). Shut him down early and you play 4v5 for the rest of the game because his impact is going to be less than zero; let him free farm and he will get to a point where he's unstoppable.

the lower bracket skews the winrate on heroes; its really not a good measure. id be interested in seeing his wr from a db+ person who has access to the advanced info

and its easier said than done to shut a hero down. theres so much risk associated with doing so because if ur plan is to pick roaming supports or something and he has a lane ward/stays far enough back because of the risk you're gonna end up getting fucked, even if you do delay his bots by a min or two via fear.

and of course march-rocket spam is pretty powerful

I'd rather see Tinker all the time than Nature's Prophet tbh

if im not wrong tinker in pro games in recent patches is above 50% wr so not op

if the hero was very strong (not even OP) he would be top ban/pick just like ember and lycan used to

"tinker in pro games in recent patches is above 50% w"

http://www.datdota.com/heroes.php
nope

6.81 winrate is 46%, 37-55 win-loss.
6.80 was the biggest sample size with 49 wins to 50 losses.

only times he was positive were:
6.77 - was above 50%, but that was just 1 more win than loss (76-75)
6.75 - only had a small sample of 27 games (15-12)

edit+
people thinking he needs a nerf are just suffering from selection bias, remembering the times he stomps, but ignoring when he gets shut down (and shut down heavily)

@where's my taco
tinker's winrate is bad even in competitive matches

thats precisely the point people focus on shutting him down throughout the game as a collective unit which is hard to achieve in pubs

but he hasnt seen a lot of action relative to how much bat/wisp were in the ti3 patch and ember/lycan/naga were in this one; if he sees more action i think we'll get a better metric on how he really is as a hero but 90 matches is hardly a sample size seeing as hes rarely used in t1 or t2 matches

the nerf for tinker is getting gud