I am using my games and examples of common pitfalls and not complaining about them. Loses are loses.
if PA has a deso and still doesn't have enough damage, I have no idea what she could've gotten with 4k gold that would provide better damage.
"Pick a "gay" hero like viper if you have to, just have impact."
Pretty much what I do every game lol. I really should start expanding my hero base but Viper is just too addicting once you see how much early game harass you can do with him while staying relevant through mid and late unless you really get shut down. Even more so since Im still very new to Dota and learning what all the heroes do while I play/watch streams.
Would also add Necro to that list by the way.
I like heroes like Tidehunter a lot, but for solo-queuing in my bracket (+-3.5K MMR) the team coordination just hardly ever is there. You´ll be pinging and initiating all the time with hardly anyone following up on it, better have a hero that doesn´t need any of that to be relevant unless you´re higher in MMR or have a team.
Also, don´t pick Pudge if you´re new..Just don´t.
@disruptive pilot
Supports: Visage, Lich, Jakiro
Carry: Viper, Juggernaut, Slardar, Wraith King
Gankers: Lion, Enchantress, Tuskarr
Havoc confirmed to be fake Relentless
Sometimes you get teammates in a bad mood and condition picking several carries;
http://dotabuff.com/matches/724798513
Sometimes you get 2 supports who roam and buy you consumables and tp when you are carry;
http://dotabuff.com/matches/705371057
It's just chance.
I'm still mad at being denied twice out of three deaths in the first game though. Once I was doomed and it was acceptable, and once we were breaking second rax and I got aggro'd to 40 health and bloodseeker thought it would be fun to bloodrage me. I almost reported him.
Anyway. Havoc don't qq.
But that doesn't mean you're gonna improve, means that you have more chances of winning. If I want to improve at Antimage/Spectre/Medusa, all I can do is to play the heroes.
unacceptable silencer: http://dotabuff.com/players/47400225
never global silence for team. Fail to roam or gank. etc.. Doesn't use q or e in team fight. Goes forcestaff, instead of sceptor.
I think you meant to link the game http://dotabuff.com/matches/727730488
Also this is not what you refer to as a "QQ" thread I am simply using my own personal games to show that impact more often than not in the first 15 minutes will usually result in a solid victory.
@Oleksandr Wrong. No one below a certain skill level should play these heroes, sure I guess now and then they're fun to play but you won't have much success with them unless you're with a stack or you're at a certain skill level. All i am encouraging people to do is pick higher impact heroes and get better at the mechanics of roaming, ganking, teamfighting, flash farming, positioning which will then allow them to transition better into heroes that are more dependent on scenario rather than play.
You can get better at such mechanics and while playing less-early-impact heroes, your logic is pretty flawed.
Improving and winning are not synonyms, one is consecuence of the other. If you improve your AM play, you will win more no matter what (and this aplies to any farming or non farming oriented hero).
Sure it's easier to win by spamming Slark or any other hero who can still do something if you're shit at last hitting and you don't know when and where to farm, but you won't improve such skills.
I repeat: Winning more doesn't mean that you're improving, but improving means that you will eventually win more. Your pieces of advice are focused more on the winning part and not so much on the improving part.
when people lose repeatedly they get frustrated and flame, they're not in a mood conducive to learning...
if i had to pick chen every game i would fucking slit my throat, i cant play him for shit
im not sure what this has to do with people trying to improve so much as people that are pretty bad
because im relatively sure everyones trying to improve (or 99% of the people are)
"your logic is pretty flawed" how so, I am not talking about early impact I am talking about impact over all and some can't do that playing heroes other than ones that are early. Improving your play as an AM doesn't mean you can win with him it just means you will be more confident on the hero but AM as a hero is only as good as his team and the opposing team allow him to be. He just doesn't have it in him to do things on his own till he has at least a decent amount of farm.
I am talking about pub games here and realistically pub games will not really improve your skill very much. If you are looking to improve in dota and you're picking heroes like medusa and AM then you probably should give up altogether, playing a 4 protect 1 style of game is only viable if you're with a group or team that is prepared to do that.
The margin for error with heroes like viper and slark is minimal whereas with heroes like AM and Medusa its massive. Telling people to pick high impact heroes is improving their common sense of how to play the game effectively.
The most effective way to teach a child to ride a bicycle is not to stick them in car. Its about taking baby steps and training yourself to get to a point where you're comfortable playing any hero anywhere. People respond to success and constantly churning out high skill cap heroes and losing most of your games isn't actually helping you learn anything.
How to improve? First make mistakes, then dont repeat them. Unless they were so amusing that they're worth doing them again :)
The most effective way to teach a child to ride a bicycle is, guess what, making him ride the bicycle.
Sorry, but you're telling me that it's easier to improve when you have the chance to do bad and still win. With heroes like Slark and Viper you don't need to have great mechanical skills because you can do well even when your last hitting is shit, you don't need great map awareness because even if you get ganked and die a couple of times you will still have impact in fights, you don't need to have good positioning and desition making in fights because you're gonna tank up the damage damage or heal up in a matter of seconds. How can you improve at such skills if you still can win without them?
With a farming oriented hero, your mistakes are more punishing: You do bad and you lose the game. You don't want to lose? Then you will HAVE TO do well. Force yourself to look at the minimap every 5 seconds because if you get ganked your impact is greatly reduced. Force yourself to learn where and when to farm. You will lose games because your desition making wasn't good enough and you decided to take a fight when you should have farmed (or the other way around). Force yourself to learn how to play a farming oriented hero from behind and still have some impact.
Picking high impact heroes doesn't mean that you're going to improve more than when you pick farming oriented heroes, means that you can still win even if you did bad.
Called it again, low impact mid letting jungle farm. End game I said I probably had the highest impact and hero damage.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/729552488 sure enough.
Stop letting people farm their jungle, 3 people farming jungle and you'll just let them do it?
Also just noticed you're still trying to make a point Oleksandr, you just keep right on playing AM there, see how that works out for you.
maybe you should tell your teammates during the game instead of telling us after it.
i agree with what oleksandr has said. if people can't play a hero well, you don't just forbid them from playing the hero, because then they'll never improve with it. everyone goes through a 'shit phase' with a hero before they get good with it.
If you can have impact with a hero then sure by all means pick AM and Medusa. Sadly most people don't and this improves only with an increase in skill not just with that hero but over all.
Of course I tell people in game to do certain things but very rarely do people listen because most feel they just know better, like letting 3 jungle farm cause you want to farm mid as storm in that guys mind was the right thing to do.
uhhh your carries in that match are all under 350 gpm, a spectre that's 0-7-4. You don't think that's a bigger problem than storm mid? It looks like bad picks, you have a nice possible trilane with spec, lion, cm but then no offlaner. Honestly I'd say spectre is the problem, talking about low impact heroes til they get tons of farm. If he goes suitable offlane gyro can tri with you guys, much better setup.
Make a point? I already proved you wrong. Winning more =/= Improving. Playing a high impact hero who will make you win more doesn't mean that you will be improving. Therefore, you're suggestions on this topic are not for people trying to improve, but for people trying to win. That's all.
Also, I wouldn't listen to a guy who think's storm should gank before he gets his orchid up. Killing an enemy hero sometimes is not worth all the farm you lose in lane.
"Proved me wrong" how? I never once said that winning was improving in the original post. Go start your own thread if you dislike what you read here. If you improve you win, that is a by product of improving and playing heroes that don't suit your skill level isn't going to make you a better player.
....keep playing AM though, looks like it's working wonders for you.
Did someone say Anti-Mage? That hero needs a buff !!! Pls Volvo, 6.82 AM becomes OP is 1st ban in pro scene.
He does but the issue with AM is that if he is buffed for early game he will literally become the most OP carry in game, currently he needs to have a decent start and just dodge most team fights till he is durable or has items (manta, basher) to help him fight or escape.
I am starting to find legion ok again, had a rough couple of last games but I still think the hero can do a lot of the team and can usually get a pretty fast blink which you can use to just roam and get your damage up as far as you can till you hit a point where solo'ing is no longer an option.
This has nothing to do with me, I have nothing to prove so I will keep spamming AM until I reach 50% wr with him just like I did with Void (another farming oriented hero) and after that I'll play Spectre, Medusa and others.
All I'm saying is that your "notes for people improving or trying to do so" are not such thing and I already explained why -you can read my previous posts. If it's not clear enough for you, I'll give you an example:
I quote: <<Invoker who was playing out side his comfort zone mid, don't do it. Pick a "gay" hero like viper if you have to, just have impact.>> How is this player going to learn how to play Invoker out of his comfort zone if your suggestion to him is "just don't play him and pick an easier hero"? How is he going to become a better Invoker player if he's not supposed to play a hard matchup? You're pretty much telling him "Improving at Invoker? Don't do that, you better pick an easier hero because winning is more important than improving". Doing like shit is part of improving, either at one hero or as a player overall.
Please, enlight me, how is spamming Slark [insert any easy and impactful hero here] going to help you improve as a carry player if you can lack basic skills like last hitting or map awareness and still win the game?
@Havoc: I believe I've said this a million times. Anti-Mage is not THE late game carry. He is one of the carries with the shortest utility window ( if not the shortest). He is very weak early, needs a lot of farm to truly come online and is crushed in the late game by other carries such as Void, Spectre, PA and such. His time window is around 25-45 minutes given he's had a good start.
Anti-Mage is more like the kind of hero that needs to get a really good start so he can get that fast battlefury and outfarm everyone and just end the game fast (unless he is the hardest carry on the map) before the enemy Void/PA/Spectre/Medusa gets 6 slotted.
I am not trying to prove anything either, I am simply letting people know that what is costing some so many games is the fact that they're picking heroes they are not yet skilled enough to play.
I don't think it improves your game as a carry to either farm AM ignoring the team till you're sufficiently farmed enough to just end it, nor making your team suffer while you kinda get shoved out of your lane and play catch up farm is either way the ideal way to learn to play carry effectively.
@Skolder I know AM is not THE ultimate late game carry which is why I am amazed people who lack skill still think they can play him. As per the original post I don't care what you pick as long as you're able to effectively play it and have as much game impact as you're safely able to early/mid and late. Most players in 3-4K don't really know how to play these heroes effectively bar a select few. I just don't like seeing people picking super late game carries and just farming for 30 minutes then jumping in solo and going gg team. I want carries to be active, I want the mid to be active, if you need to farm please farm but make it count.
Farming is something that a lot of carries have to do but heroes like Slark and Viper don't require inordinate amounts of farm to be useful. Again, I am talking more about the impact a hero has on a game and not the hero picks in themselves. If you have the skill to play a Medusa mid effectively go for it, if you want to play a carry Antimage that is also fine, but be aware of the position you're putting your team in and have an understanding of when you will be needed and when you will have some space to farm in the jungle.
"picking heroes they are not yet skilled enough to play."
4th most played is viper, more losses than wins.
same with doom, your second most played.
surely if you were skilled enough to play these heroes, you'd be able to have enough individual impact to cause your team to win more often than lose.
LMAO havoc the one game u used as an example of 'everyone having good impact' was an utter stomp, which doesn't mean anything
the primary reason people don't have good impact in the 4k bracket is they get caught out of position and die without doing anything. you could watch any 5.5k+ player's perspective and he'll usually position himself well to maximize damage output
it isn't that the 4k players are "just farming all game and doing nothing," it's them not knowing how to teamfight properly and dying in stupid ways
to put it bluntly from wave:
3k-4k: i can't last hit
4k-5k: i don't know how to teamfight, position well, or know when to farm
5k-6k: good players/abusers/cheaters
telling people not to pick am is dubious at best, beesa has something like 80% win rate on a smurf that he exclusively picks am and solo queues with. yes there are better heroes than am/medusa but if ur good u will still win games regardless.
also if u play a hero like tb u shouldn't have very good hero damage unless the other team's retarded since all u do is push a tower and retreat to jungle
ur advice is also a double-edged sword since heroes like venomancer, zeus, and tinker are generally going to do enormous amounts of hero damage (relative to their team) but it doesn't mean i deserve higher mmr just cuz i pick those heroes
am is still pretty solid since half the people you lane against end up dying to mana break/mid game mana voids
and the title of this should have been 'how to win in lower brackets' versus 'how to improve' because you improve more by picking CM every game so you know not to walk under enemy tower when ur going for fb or stupid shit like that
am's a great hero against most offlaners, actually. if ur not getting ur bfury/pms/quelling/treads up by 16 minutes consistently then the issue isn't the hero pick but ur inability to farm decently
great against seer (can drain mana + spell shield mitigates damage from shell)
great against clock
great against phoenix
great against timbersaw (trade hits early on)
does ok against centaur/potm/slark
Sigh, you people are dense. This is not about AM or any one hero in particular, this is about playing any given hero effectively.
@Androgynous Not the case at all. Loses happen and sometimes its hard to win even if you do well, case and point you have 4 heroes on your top sub 50% but that might not mean that you're bad at those heroes. In fact I have seen an increase in their win rates over the last month but a large amount of games means any progress is slow. Picking the right hero for the right game, making a game harder on your team because you want to play a certain hero and don't care about how much you effect the game is not the way to go about playing a hero.
@Instinct and Innocence I totally agree it was. I was queuing with some people from ESP who weren't the worlds highest rated players but still friendly and willing to take advice. More the point was (guess you would have to watch it) was the fact that I was out of my top late with a blink and boots at around 8 minutes and proceeded to do everything I could to be active.
I disagree with that, a lot of 4k players are pretty good but it's hit and miss but a sweeping statement like that is massively inaccurate. Perhaps they might not be as on top of things as much as a 5k player but they do a pretty decent job. The intention of impact is not the hero damage you do and some of the games I posted top where examples where weaker heroes and odd lanes did more damage or had a higher impact than those who were supposed to.
This is not theory crafting AM builds and plays and who he's good against, like stated in at least 3 post I don't care about what heroes you play just be effective. It's not who you play it's how you play it.
Teamwork this and teamwork that , at the end of the day , you still get shitty teammates who doesn't want to cooperate. After all, the whole game depends on you, if you are complaining and being discouraging to your team , then you're the one at fault too and deserve the lost.
^ it's funny because 90% of players are thinking like this
same shit over and over
What if I'm playing veno, and I get stuck solo support, and by the time I can afford a force staff everyone has BKB's so my only DPS is wards/auto? I've had plenty of games in 5k where I feel like I've done a great job, but I still only have 4-10k HD, usually around 6k.
Example:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/726275782
http://dotabuff.com/matches/726125566
http://dotabuff.com/matches/726082197
Also, am I going to get shit MMR because I played support in qualifcations? :( This system sounds dumb. I'm supporting my friend every game, so we'll see how much it matters I suppose.
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Low hero damage is inexcusable unless you're a disabler or one of the few heroes that interact without doing much damage. Pick heroes that have the ability to have high impact in the early game and stop picking heroes that are unable to do anything unless they have copious amounts of farm.
As much as possible make sure the mid is something that can do stuff throughout the game even if shut down.
> http://dotabuff.com/matches/727535101 Unacceptable windranger damage, items, and impact. Same damage as Rubick almost as a mid.
> http://dotabuff.com/matches/725884059 Invoker who was playing out side his comfort zone mid, don't do it. Pick a "gay" hero like viper if you have to, just have impact.
> http://dotabuff.com/matches/727038061 Safe lane PA, again unacceptable hero damage, items and impact.
Acceptable http://dotabuff.com/matches/726877584 everyone pulling their own weight and having impact.