"Warlord SF(no raze) was definitely legit shit"
?
ok lets ignore 900 dmg nuke totally legit
no raze... wtf
Raze can help snowball your snowball, no? That 900 dmg potential early game is raunchy against stacked camps. I just don't see the -armor build outperforming razes.
but I get what you mean... I always like to try and make new/stupid shit work somehow
but by pubs, which MMR level are you referring to?
6k + = dota allstar
5k + = dota pro
4k + = dota xpert
3k + = dota rookie
2k + = dota scrub
1k + = uninstall
Progressively, the higher you go up, the more difficult it is to use "weird builds".
I can tell you in Dota 1, where the average skill level is equivalent to about 2k MMR, I could do practically any item build and stomp across the map. I would most definitely go glass cannon builds cause I can now afford to play aggressively with a passive hero and come out with more farm than usual since I'm playing against "pubs" so to speak. Think of an easy example - Drow. I could go 0-0-4-3 and stats or 1-1-4-3 and stats and pay little to no price for it but gain huge advantages due to ridiculously fast damage output.
i go fast attacks on ursa level 1 then either slow or the passive and end up maxing the fast attacks by level 7 sometimes! and it works....
No, you don't get what I mean. In your perspective, I'm some scrub who thinks he knows better. The funny thing is thats exactly what my perspective of you guys saying its stupid are. lol. Open your minds a little.
http://dotabuff.com/players/1689352/matches?date=&faction=&hero=shadow-fiend&lobby_type=ranked_matchmaking&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
The build was first brought up by Vandal whose MMR peaked at 4900 I think? According to him a bunch of games he had to do with teammates flaming him and had to play with bad early game. I've tried it with friends at the 4k and 4.6k level respectively where it did well but we only played around for 4-5 games which is too small of a pool to actually prove it.
Anyway, if you think its nonsense then don't bother responding to the thread at all? Wasting my time and wasting yours.
i don't mean stupid as in literally "retarded"
i just lump it together with quirky/weird/funky/stupid/funny/abnormal/ETC
I don't think that it's nonsense, however I do question that build. I've used both -armor and razes, and I still fine razes superior even with the ITEM BUILD of "right-click SF". It was also not him that came up with it, I've seen it much earlier than this back before Dota 2 was even made.
I am saying that I see where you're coming from, but I'm also saying that: depending on the given item/skill build of a given hero, you will progressively have a harder time as you rise through the ranks. This is all just personal experience. I still do it nonetheless, you'll still find me doing a 1-1-4 or a 1-4-4 centaur and shit like that. I haven't precisely totaled up my WR% by separating the "weird" builds from the "normal" ones. But overall it's like 63% or something, and I'm pretty sure I've done abnormal builds in at least 30-40% of my games for centaur.
that sf build works when sf is a trilane carry, i even do sf without ulti sometimes and it rly works! but i wont believe no raze sf mid is viable vs equally/close skilled teams
The first person commenter clearly found it retarded.
I believe the strength of Warlord SF stems from the fact that at level 8, he is the hardest hitter out of every single hero in the game. If given safelane farm by level 8 you would have treads+mom. Now picture a level 8 sniper with deso and two hyper stones. Its sorta along those lines. Vandal's build makes SF a tanky mofo as well and most people are just flat out flabbergasted with the "shock factor" which is why he tends to snowball.
But w/e lol the hardest part about it convincing the supports to actually support you. Like if anything goes bad the team will just blame you and ggwp when people go full retard.
without razes you have no flashfarm ability
which means if you die once good luck catching up on souls
so no, it's not legit shit
imagine dragon knight without fire breath or drow without frost arrow
yes
PA Vanguard: Huge early game ganking potential. Evasion + Vanguard = 0 damage taken.
PA Skadi: Lots of HP which solves your squishiness. Slow that won't let the enemy kite you.
PA Butterfly: They can't touch you. You can fountain dive for at least 1 min w/o dying.
"The funny thing is thats exactly what my perspective of you guys saying its stupid are. lol."
@!yiran, you're like the people in the past who said the world was flat. please don't comment in a thread if you're not gonna contribute anything and only contribute flame.
theres this witchdoctor ... tottaly wreck shit everywhere
shadow blade + amulet too OP to handle... enemy doesnt even buy dust
When I think about my heroes and what isnt common a few heroes get into my mind
My Sven Build.
Skillbuild, 1 Lvl in Warcry and Stormbolt, keep the points when the laning phase dissolves, afterwards skill cleave, get either MoM or HotD.
With MoM you just spam it whether you are farming or not and just try to get as much farm as possible. I end up fat very quickly and get Blink as 4-6th item. With that I just blink in and immediatly kill 1-2 important heroes and win the game. (I leave Stormbolt lvl 1 and maxing warcry as soon as I have to/will fight.
http://dotabuff.com/players/133212901/matches?date=&faction=&hero=sven&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
My Naga,
If I see my farm is not that great, aka i got shut down instead of radiance I go for linkens. It makes me need 1 less item to get online and helps me to spam way more with fountain trips, also Treads cause early DPS and treadsswapping.
My Jugger,
Phase/Treads, (Soulring), Drums, Diffu, Manta, Bfly (eventually BKB or Agha somewhere). Diffusal is one of the strongest items on
juggernaut, cannot understand why so few people pick it up:/
http://dotabuff.com/players/82211644/matches?date=&duration=&faction=&game_mode=&hero=juggernaut&lobby_type=®ion=
All of those have pretty high winrate for me personally, a little different fro standard
@!yiran
DK without Breathe and Drow without Frost arrow actually used to be a thing. Frost arrow gets atleast a little more appreciated nowadays atleast
rofl, oh yeah i was doin amulet/slark before i got sb and i was just walkin around the map with it... its kinda hilarious and fun
perhaps, perhaps not. remember, this is the internet, and even irl, most people aren't willing to fully explain what they're thinking or why they're thinking it.
to continue on about SF, yeah he's pretty much (as i've said before), a metamorph'd TB at lvl 7+
you can literally just SB into a group of people, 1 shot a support with it, and then finish the rest off with a couple hits
also the "shock factor" i can agree with. the element of surprise is underestimated all the time.
those who are not ready to look for the surprise, will undoubtedly be surprised.
and lastly yeah, people generally don't tolerate straying from "recommended ONLY" builds, even if it isn't viable for that game.
example:
time and time again i have people always yellin at either me or others to rush blinks when possibly:
A. we already have initiation, B. the initiation it gives us is useless because we have nothing to follow it up with
getting a 2150 gold item that offers no EHP and considerably lower defensive qualities is a poor choice VS push-oriented drafts, or if you're losing and you're forced to turtle.
i.e. you're batrider. it's 9-2. they have a lot of burst damage on the opposing team and mobility. 1. you go blink. you blink. you cast net. you walk forward 50 units. you get stunned. you die. did i mention it's a pain to try and blink against favourable heroes such as AA, NP, Lycan, Viper, Veno ETC, where they can target you from afar and easily disable you from blinking for long periods of time?
so what are you going to do. buy that item to go double stack your neutral camps? cause that would seem smarter to me.
but when it comes to common scenarios like the one i listed above, i opt for force staff first. always.
they come in cheaper parts, adds to ur much needed mana pool, and gives not just you, but your allies a possible escape mech
or better yet, forcestaff the enemy into YOU.
i think of blink like this. aggressive = expose yourself = gang oriented = team must have kill potential
doing this when you have a turtle setup, or when you're being pushed down too hard, just really doesn't seem like a great idea (to me).
i came across these tips which seems relevant here:
A newbie thinks, "What the hell is going on?"
A novice thinks, "What do I need to do in this fight?"
A player with basic understanding thinks, "What does my team need to do in this fight?"
A player with intermediate understanding thinks, "What does the other team need to do in this fight?"
A player with great understanding thinks, "How do we stop the other team from doing what they need to do?"
Force your opponents to make uninformed decisions. Adapting is one thing: knowing how to do that is quite different. For the most part, you can control a lot of what your opponent sees. Your opponent doesn't know what item you're building if all of the items are in your base. Even when you do have the item, certain items like Blademail still force your opponents to use incomplete information. Sure, you have it, but when are you going to use it? Can Huskar get away with using Life Break on you? Are you going to initiate and then activate it? The more decisions your opponent has to make, the more likely he or she is to make a mistake.
^ applaudes to anyone who reads that wall of text, for some reason long posts are more discouraging to read LOL
might as well do some theory crafting for fun builds
@arka - im curious as to how well a 1-4-4 sven would work if he built treads/hotd (stack camps/ancients)/bkb/sny/sb
wtf doom - midas/manaboots/refresher (afk farm 20 min.. you get the idea) i'm wondering if this would actually out perform midas/boots/radi
dps doom - midas/hotd (stack camps/ancients)/phase/maelstrom(mjolnir)/bfury/basher(abyssal)
agiwhore drow - wraithband/wb(RoA)/treads/yasha(manta)/ghost(eblade)/sb/skadi/bfly - obviously usin dat 0-1-4 stat build
"stupid" cent - tranq or str treads/vguard or hood/sange(halberd)/blink/heart/ac or shivas - and again 1-0-4 or 1-4-4. i did some messin around on a dota 2 calculator to look at things like EHP and DPS with the theory craft builds, and fk you all, dis cent build is super tanky.
@₰ϗ҉ﮎєє
Well first of I go stats over Warcry for some time since my plan is not even to join fights, its to farm, so I would first get an AC or other dps items before that BKB, and then when the moment comes i can take out anyone instantly i would get Dagger and BKB and basically win the game in 1 or 2 fights. I do not recommend SNY on Sven (Excepts maaaaaaaaybe racecar build) And lothar is rather meh compared to blink
actually, I take that back; Drow with Frost Arrow is somewhat legit, due to batshit insane damage output when coupled with a team with good cc
but not Shadow Fiend without Raze
too expensive and useless int
it's like, yes you can build arcane boots on phantom lancer so you always have mana but you don't because mana management can solve this problem and you can use your money to boost your damage and AS and health
Skadi's also a bad orb on melee heroes that aren't Slark because good players won't let you hit them and dedicated escapers like puck and storm spirit are still gonna run away whereas if you had deso you might have killed them
I've tried out the Radi+Blademail+Mjolnir WK and eh, its pretty good.
I really liked the concept that you DON'T build survivability on him like BKB or Cuirass because you actually want to trigger Reincarnate to win teamfights with that slow.
You use Mjolnir's active and dive in as a frontliner. If enemies focus you, you switch on blademail and they receive tons of damage and ultimately get slowed by your ult. If they ignore you, then lol glass cannon WK smashing the shit out of you.
if they let you have that much farm and don't have a more farmed morph or luna w/ bkb then they deserve to lose really.
IF YOU WIN, ALL YOUR GAMES WITH A NONSENSE AND BULLSHIT BUILD
ITS LEGIT FOR YOU
Seriously lets say you are a 4,5k player and you have 90 % winrate with dagon Shadow Fiend
WHO is going to tell you that its not legit
Meanwhile the guy who goes for the normal build has 50 % winrate, GRATZ YOUR BUILD IS "LEGIT", and you still lose .........
!yiran, Hailrake rose from 4.8k to 6.8k EXCLUSIVELY using that build every bloody game.
what the fak u gonna say now
lyk rlly
dont run from this.
mbe 6k players too scrub tts why
muz be 9k to b legit
http://dotabuff.com/players/163075690
Like I said, you're just like one of those smartasses in the past who so firmly believed the earth was flat calling everyone who suggested otherwise an idiot.
I bet my ass !yiran doesn't say anything anymore. Or he gives pointless troll comment to save some of his ego.
I don't need ego from a dota forum, I already have best grades in my entire year. And amusement from your flames (Ignite the flame guard!)
WK is an OP pub hero due to the lack of coordination, not because of this special weird build. It would have likely been easier if he changed his build. My Necrophos, Wraith King, Death Prophet, and Abaddon winrate are all very high and I would likely boost my MMR if I played those heroes exclusively.
is all
also the earth is round, so please don't strawman anymore
EDIT: gimme your ass now
probably not, because my mechanical skills aren't as good
but I could probably get to way higher than I should be, considering that I'm at 3k
also are you okay? lie down. have a cookie.
I'm honestly just finding it sort of funny and enjoying myself right now.
>73.33% winrate and 7.74 KDA
>mmr amongst best in the world
>says build not good
>says 6k pubbers are bad enough to lose get stomped by a bad build
>says hero is OP
EDIT: Like, it even has a sample size of over 200 hundred games against a variety of heroes.
You realize your arguments are extremely forced?? If all this isn't enough to convince you that its a viable build, I don't really have anything to say anymore...
i played a game with a no raze SF (around 4k mmr): http://dotabuff.com/matches/657096478
it can work but i think raze is just too good, although it didn't matter that game since the enemy team was terrible. my team was a 4 russian stack too but they were decent
hailrake build IS actually really good, revolutionarized the pubstyle of this particular hero.
@wizard
I did some research on the leaderboards and he/she's not there. care to provide evidence of screenshot or smth?
also, do realise that the pub winrates include the very high brackets. even if people are in a very high bracket there is still going to be lack of coordination due to it being pubs
yeah it's viable and way better than raze shadow fiend, but why don't pros use it then? (I never even said it was a bad build in pubs, I even said it was successful, just more due to the hero than due to the item build – hush now. glad you're enjoying it. pain is the best teacher.)
Hailrake was well documented on playdota forums, with many 6k+ players playing against him. He sold his account and moved on already.
Because builds serve different purposes.
First consider that most WKs in pro games are support, and tend to go for initiation items like blink. Second even support WKs go for many aspects of Hailrake's build, like Blademail and Mjollnir.
It is a pub build, and a strong one at that - with some merits in the competitive scene.
I have personally tried it and crushed 6k players with it, although I am not good enough to adapt against counterpicks like PL unlike Hailrake.
That's not even considering how the pro scene is very trend based.
Midas is a horrible item on TA for instance, but Singsing propagated the trend and all the pros are just blindly following.
The SF this would be way better if enemies couldn't see their armor get reduced/aura :d
@Vandal -_-
in the end nobody posted any groundbreaking builds except some interesting deviations (diffusal jugg). the rest I have seen here and there before that don't possess the omg/op factor of warlord sf or hailrake wk.
its difficult to come up with an entirely new way of playing a hero while still having equal, if not better results
maybe axe - tranq/blink/dagon5/aghs/bloodstone/eblade
I think the hardest part of coming up with a new build is testing it in a large enough sample size(?).
Just like how Gyro was considered shit in the past till some pr0 team went carry with him. I bet some pubbers tested carry Gyro first but they didn't experiment enough to get the ideal build which made it effective.
Here's a troll build that gets some attention here and there:
Terrorblade. lothars, armlet, and dagon into "regular" items (skadi, butterfly, manta, etc.)
Strategy:
1.) Use armlet to lower hp to the lowest that will swap over.
2.) Lothars into a lone enemy.
3.) Ult him.
4.) Dagon him.
I don't think you would need to build armlet JUST to lower your health. Might as well feed the ancients.
Pro trends are extremely weird imo. Like the ineffective midas TA, popularity surges are extremely weird. Crystal Maiden got a 3 int nerf which was a decent deal but went from first tier support to like unpicked. On the other hand no one uses Naga right after each nerf but then a few months pass and she becomes popular without being buffed and gets nerfed again.
I think a similar thing is with Wraith King. An ulti slow buff saw him from being unpicked to first pick. I'm pretty sure Ember got nerfed more than WK got buffed but is still top pick.
\_(ツ)_/
Armlet Weaver
Medallion Naix
Jungle Sniper, maxing stats/headshot
Jungle Huskar, with stats over innervitality/burning spears as well as ult at lvl 1. (used to be possible before uam removal)
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I forgot which guy exposed it first but Warlord SF(no raze) was definitely legit shit. It absolutely wrecked mid game and the snowballing would begin.
Then there was that WK build with blademail+radiance?? I never looked into it much but apparently it had quite high success as well. Can someone elaborate on it?
I want funky builds that win you MOST of the games. I don't need a desolator CM or a jungling KOTL.
EDIT: Some detailed explanations would be preferred because I do take this seriously.