General DiscussionWhy do people still make Battlefury on Jug/Bh?

Agree with you, although I never see battlefury on BH.

i agree. i built bfury on jugg one time and it did not do good to me lategame, although i scored the most last hits that time

stop acting like it's the worst item possible

agree, tired of playing with ppl who build them, holy shit...QQ

Agreed Bf nowasays sucks on any hero!!
Carries require dmg no doubt but it shud give sum stats or help u in sum sortduring the ganks! Bf just aids u in farming!
Best item on void toh...
But if u go bf mjo vlads butter abyssal or agha with ur boot i think u can dispatch any team.

I was building it on jug for a long time when i started playing dota. I was capable of justifing it for several idiotic reasons back then. These were really dark times for me, full of ignorance and misery.(now i like going for maelstrom sometimes, just for the lightning proc during omnislash. Nice and cheap aoe, decent(not perfect) for semi carrish build).

People just like the item i guess. They will say some nonsens like "great mana regen", "nice dmg", "aoe omnislash", but they dont take into consideration that he still has abysmal mana pool, the dmg overall is better with deso and for aoe omnislash you need godlike ias. So what you get for a NON HARD CARRY is an item worth ~4300 that needs other items to be satisfactory. And late game its just a nuisance.

bf on jug isn't bad it allows your ult to cleave and if you aren't a tool you'll be able to farm effectively

if you go bf on jugg as well build for treds/manta basher

Bf is a sound item if u r the only carry in the team!! Otherwise go for items such as yasha,drums,vlads...really helps a lot...

it's not the worst item possible. people need to stop labeling something as 'bad' when it's borderline optional.

Enlighten me why bf is not good ? seems decent to me, with decent cost , hp/mana regen, cleave.
Do you mean bf bad in general or bad on jugg/bh ? am/void bf also bad ?

idk, haven't played jugg for a long time.

I don't play Jugg often, but I'll admit that a maelstrom would have helped a lot more in my last game, even though we eventually won it. I don't think it's THAT bad.

It's awesome on BH though http://dotabuff.com/matches/200434935

Ok kidding! We had a 30 kills + 2 raxes advantage, so BH and Lesh decided to go full retard with BH doing THAT and Lesh selling all of his items except his BoT.

battlefury isnt all that bad on BH. It is the same with vanguard people flip out and say VANGUARD WORST ITEM IN THE GAME UR BETTER OFF BUILDING 6 MAGIC WANDS.

^I get a lot of flame because i really like sangue and yasha on jugger and troll.

But whatever man ....

You farm faster, and you can use bladefury on creeps without worrying about mana. And it gives decent stats. It sets your foundations for better items.

dota has such flexibility in item choice that most inexperienced players dont seem to grasp and they think there is 1 role for 1 hero with 1 item build

When you hit 50% with your jugger than you can start preaching dota. Until then stfu

Battlefury is a good item, I'm tired of people saying it's crap, it's crap on such and such hero, it's only for farming yada yada.

It's cheap for a 65 dmg item. Deso gives you more dmg, about 20% more probably depending on your target's armor, and SnY gives you some stats but much less dmg. But battlefury gives you sustain power to stay in your lane or jungle with mana and hp regen.

Also bf can turn any melee into a pusher, especially ones with crit like bounty and jug. It lets bounty farm deso next super fast, I'd gladly sacrifice a bit of early gank power for tremendous mid game gank power. In team fights bounty hits everyone with that jinada strike which can be quite a bit of dmg.

Totally agreeing with Mark. Bf on BH is quite decent if u need to farm core items quickly. Gives you nice regen after you've hunted some enemies and survived clashes.

The problem with it is really just people getting it far too late and not leaving lane at all until they get it. Like you're getting dived top, bounty could port in, track/stealth gank the diver with ease, but his response, "busy farming lane." Whereas a lot of other heroes that go more cheaper core like treads and a helm of dom or vlad's they'll be out of lane much sooner. So people end up blaming the battlefury instead of the player for poor decisions.

Also there are some bad heroes to build it on, I just don't think jug and bounty are them. Like slardar and brew. I have built it on those guys many times when I really shouldn't have. Slardar needs attack speed to proc bashes, just going hyperstone is much better than battlefury for him, and deso stacks with his ult for tons of extra dmg. Brew it seems like an ok item cus it stacks with his crit but ultimately brew needs tank stats and to depend on micromanaging his spirits in team fights. Bf does nothing for those spirits so it's kinda wasted.

Bounty shouldn't go Bfury, HE IS A GANKER NOT A FARMER
Jugg synergies with Bfury if you get it early- The crit does massive dmg with ur ulti

saying X hero shouldnt be Y only limits the vast amount of strategies you can utilize in dota. An example of this is support alchemist

Jugg kinda needs a Battlefury if he is playing 1 role and he has no other cores in his team (like mid DK). Because that hero is not the biggest late game power so he will need more farm than the opposing carry. But it sucks on BH big time.

That's what I mean, all this assumption that battlefury instantly makes you an afk jungle farmer... it doesn't have to. Bounty gets it, kills a wave with 2 hits due to jinada, then goes to gank, the regen lets him slip right back into lane or go gank more. It's not like he has to go into the jungle or incessantly farm lanes to get use out of it. And also jinada + cleave makes for nice double ganks.

To people defending it.

a bh with battlefury, phase, wand. at 20-25mins has less then 900hp.
And your telling me its a great option for regen, when your int pool is what? standard + 3 branches? Battlefury is a % based mana item, its not going to win you a game. BKB's win games, drums, "stats"

it'll help you farm "abit" faster, but it wont make you magicly make up the 4k extra gold-
A yasha for instance will help you farm alot faster, make you walk faster and costs 2050, and if your comparing costs, an Sny or a manta will give you enough hp to actually do something in game rather then wait for your next item.
To people arguing that its a great pushing item, Vlads pushes a million times faster unless you 2hit creep waves, which your not going to do till uber late anyway.

The whole idea of battlefury is to gain an advantage early, and continue to outfarm your opponent. AM gets 6slotted in professional games at 35-40mins 5-10mins faster than traditional carries, and thats why he can sacrifice the time on it. Antimage makes up for not being able to teamfight early, by splitpushing.
If you can tell me a Jug and a bounty should be dodging teamfights, farming and "attempting" to splitpush till they get 10k net worth, instead of being active with their team with 5k networth, then clearly you don't know enough about dota.

a PA might lean towards one if they are stomping their lane but trading farm with annother carry, however it means they can't really fight till they get 2-3 more items up. which in most cases is just too late.

Its a situational item. You'll know when to get it when uve played enuf.

you seem to think the people saying battlefury isnt a horrible item means that it is the BEST ITEM EVER. Stop viewing dota in 1 demention and you will realize why the dota meta game changes so often

It is primarily a FARMING item, like a midas. Do not purchase it later just because it seems like a cool late game item, it isn't. Most good players SELL their Battlefury in place of a better late game item if the game goes long enough.

Juggernaut or CARRY Bounty Hunter - Battlefury is ONLY good if you can safelane farm it at 13~ minutes, if you can't, don't bother. It accelerates your farm and synergizes well with Omnislash and Bounty Hunter's Critical Hit. But like a midas, it weakens you early and delays your progress until later.

You shouldn't get it on Bounty Hunter unless you are forced to play hard carry and you shouldn't get it on Juggernaut if you can't get the farm. No one wants a Bounty Hunter/Jugg with a 20-30 minute first item BattleMcFlurry.

you can get a battlefury quite fast as a offlane/mid BH if you can score early track kills. It is a situational item just like when I make a orchid on BH control AM picks. I am not saying battlefury is the best item but it still is a ok pick up in certain situations

If not bf, what you recommend first big item for jugg ?

answer: mek. jugg is the best team healer in 6.79 :)

sigh, you dont stay on lane farming your bfury with gondar, you get a couple of last hits, perhaps kills, get your pers side/secret shop and perma roam from 6 onwards. with successful ganks you can get it pretty darn fast, and then you hit like a truck early.
then straight into bkb.
rushing bkb is almost always bad, as you dish out 0 dmg on hits and people can ultimately ignore you.

I like drums, manta on jugg. Sometimes Drums, sangue and yasha just to stack hp, but that its just me :P .

( I love race car builds )

bf is bad on bh only time you would build it for him is if you're facing pl. for jugg it allows him to play a hard carry role where farming becomes more of an option now since you can cleave everything in front of you. its like asking why am goes battlefury, to farm faster duhh. but with that in mind you can also split push faster as well reducing stress on your own base while you threaten to push into theirs. it is crucial as the 1 role to have a presence in the game, you are essentially the richest hero on the team so your item choice is important. building bf means you have about a 30-40 min game in mind meaning you are trying to soak all the available farm on the map with the least amount of time spent farming. farm items aren't bad just ppl who don't know how to farm or what heroes are effective at farming are. farming is the most reliable way to get gold hands down, if you gear yourself towards teamfighting right off the bat and they just aren't happening then what is the point? kills don't win you games raxing and killing ancient does

Jug shouldnt be played as a hard carry. The reason is simple- if you intend to spend your time farming, and not killing people- you will waste your bladefury and omnislash- their prime time is asap, not 30 minutes into the game. So bf kind of breaks a juggernaut.

For bh- bh's role is getting his ult as many times as he can, staying invisible and scouting and bursting people with shuriken and his crit. He needs mana, a lot of mana- bf wil not cover it. He needs hit points, since he will need to get close a lot. Bf costs so much gold and he should leave the lane at 6 and start roaming and killing. A normal bounty hunter simply cant AFFORD a bf(therefore items such as drums or vlads- cost efficient, cheap). If you HAVE the money, there are better items to get.

It is totally useless on gondar, sure if you are stomping but then it doesn't really matter what items you get. As jugger I wouldn't recommend BF, but lets say you are the only hero in the game with any late potential and you have free farm early, then a BF could work pretty well.

"what do you suggest to get first on jug"

Boy i dont know, phase>yasha>vlads>bkb>manta? you know just a thought

A VERY typical build for jug is phase-drums-yasha-aghanim. Its easy to build and orientates around his skills really well- race car alows him to inflict max dmg with spin and catch almost every non-blink hero. After that you get a scepter to make his ult more impactful. After that... well. There is mnjolnir for aoe inside omnislash, butterfly, mkb, basher, even skadi is a fine choice... There are so many options.

I just think that a hero should be built around his strenghs. There has to be a good reason for spending gold. Jug is a very decent semi carry, because his skills allow him to be powerful in every phase of teh game. Getting a bfury for example makes his early to mid much weaker, and ultimately he will not outcarry really good carries, if he just joins the farmfest.

i did it once with bh 1 out of 4 (my bh i only play him 4 times) http://dotabuff.com/matches/345699079 ..we win early game and lose mid game but they want to drag it and late game we won every team fight ..

because they are ignorant about proper itemization

@silvers

The reason this analysis is flawed is it assumes your "race car build" works against your opponents. If everyone on their team has blink or other escapes, what would you build then?

Just play dota, build whatever floats your boat for that situation. Try to be malleable. Ignore close-minded criticism. I have seen people in games criticize builds used by professional players. I have seen really terrible builds defended. No one is going to change his mind. They're building what they want to build, just run with it.

All I'll say in regards to BF on jugg: It can work just fine in certain situations.

Jug is naturally flawed against blink heroes, since it disrupts both bladefury and monislash. You cant REALLY compensate it by items- if you could, then you could pick any other hero as well. There are things like orchid ofc but...meh. So if you see many blinking heroes in the enemy team- expect a really hard time with jug. Thats it.

Ofc it can work just fine. Thats not the problem. The real question is this: is using the same ammount of money for different build (and different approach to the hero) more benefitial? Because i think it is.

@Silvers
It obviously depends...

The whole idea of bh is killing heroes, thats why u always have to gank and get that bonus gold from track. u need more bulkiness/flexibilty early on and later on u can go for some big item like DESO which is 10x times better that Bfury. With deso u can 2 shot support + urn and shuriken.

BF on BH is ridiculous
Need Money = More Farm = BattleFury? Nah, as BH You can get 500+ GPM with only <100 Last hit.
Need Mana/Hp? Just use Urn+Wand, problem solved.

never on bh on jugger is not soo bad

you know juggs ult scales off physical dmg and attack speed. and his bladefury functions as a rage tp like naix his ult is also modified by on hit items so basher/abysal or mkb make his ult even more powerful 4200 gold for mediocre stats n a semi amped ult or 4350for an item that allows you to have more impact in the game overall thru farming capability to split pushing and faster item progression, don't question the fucking item it's good on all heroes, just it comes down to situations when and why you need to buy it. don't troll me either because if anyone brings up any dumb points like it doesn't work on ranges well no shit it says on the tooltip itself. really every item is viable in the game it just depends on the situation at hand. yes you can work on perfecting builds but still there is always room for changes look at naix that hero has one of the most flexible builds, any carry item seems to work on him. so just keep in mind there isn't just one way to play dota

Uh, he can only jump so many times, so fast, idk what AS has anything to do with his ult, but you are correct about the phys damage.

its shit tier on BH in general, very rarely is it worth getting, and usually if it is, its well after you finish your core items.

As for Juggernaut, it doesn't play to his strengths, and the main problem is people that buy battlefury and then they don't farm. The most disgusting thing you will ever see is someone build battlefury on juggernaut and then try to gank and shit. Son, if you build fucking battlefury, then you better actually farm.

If you get enough AS you can get more attacks during your ultimate (not slashes, but your actual attacks)

that's what i mean ^^^