I don't see why almost everyone is bashing this guy? He offered his help for free. As many before have said, you really have no idea how much we actually do just on instincts rather than thought. And this is something that you gain by hours of practice if no one tells you what is actually going on.
Newbies would still need this time, but it's much easier when they kind of get the idea on what they have to do.
Anyway, don't bash people who would take their time to actually bring up the level of the players, appreciate them.
+Dorkly:
They guy only wanted to help new players for free.
So many hate.
@[FF]Sampson:
Why do you always have to be so negative and arrogant towards anybody you dislike in the forums? the guy just wanted to help, it's pretty rare thing nowadays.
in all the years I have gamed I've got to say the 10 years ago the community spirit was much higher in any game or forum, now is just depressing. You want to express your point of view? perfect! but do it with some sense please..
Somehow I've avoided all the flame here, I don't think I've ever been flamed or called nub except one time I said skele king was a sweet carry and someone said that was the dumbest statement ever. But generally if you don't act stupid or claim to be the best you don't get flamed.
If I was writing a paper and someone told me he got all A's in the course and he is willing to help me for free and I later find out he failed every single assignment he handed in and I used his notes for my paper the ONLY thing he did for me was waste my time and I have to start over again. I dont get how you think I have a personal vendetta against this guy I have never met. The only information I have from him was his in game performance which did not match what he illustrated in his first post. If I went around and told every new player dont buy boots it is not worth the gold ever I would not be doing anyone a favor. As I stated in my first post I appreciated the effort but what he was doing was only wasting peoples time
Your analogy is overblown. Anyone who would seek help from him without checking his stats would really be a nub and therefore could have really gained some knowledge from OP. The people whose time would be wasted would not have spent more than 10 seconds deciding that he couldn't help them.
gained some good information sure, gained bad information as well. Why would it be a good idea to give them the wrong information? This happens alot in Kendo(google it) in which new people try and 'teach' other newer people and for every good piece of advice they give they end up giving just as many if not more bad tips which really hurts the person being taught. While they might have good intentions they are not helping anyone in the long run
[FF]Sampson learned Dota directly from Loda
He never read a random guide at the Internet
He never checked any information other than what's said by pros
where did I say that? I said why give new people wrong information. I dont mean to offend anyone but players in the normal bracket do not understand the basics(my definition of basics include things like last hitting, denying, pulling etc.) of dota it is as simple as that. You have to learn before you can teach.
@winter I 100% agree it is up to the individual on what they want to do, I am merely giving them the information and then it is their own choice. As I have stated quite a few times my only issue with the post was how misleading it is
If his student is newbie or newbie+, then he has right to teach them because 6 YEARS experience is something. As a newbie, it's better to explore this harsh world of dota with a coach rather than wandering alone and being flamed all the time without given chance to learn what his mistake is. Most people only say YOU NOOB, REPORT or similar criticism without sufficient detail.
What about the wrong information? Let's compare of both disadvantage of those choices.
is _Learn Dota alone and flamed all them time_ better than _Being misinformed by coach_?
Nope. Hence the benefit outweigh the disadvantage
As i said before, this only apply for newbie/newbie+ students.
I was writing a reply for [FF]Sampson last night but decided to stop it because I thought he'd stop his arguments and feel bad for himself when OP decided to retract his intention.
But this newbie samspon keeps on coming strong.
Fyi, OP said he is at an advanced skill level and supported it with the fact that he has played Dota 1 for 6 yrs and have over 1k games in Dota 2. Now don't you frigging bend the measuring stick by saying you cannot be at an advanced skill level if you don't know how to do certain kind of things and how to play certain kind of heroes. Being "advanced" is a very subjective/relative term and if you just know how to comprehend certain stuff then you would easily understand what OP's measuring context is.
But since you got way too over your head and let your fingers started typing before your brain can process the words you have just read. Then you completely missed out the point that the post's intention was to help people.
Now we didn't miss understanding your posts intention - it is very straightforward. Any newbie will understand whatever you are trying to say and no - you are not saying that his post was misleading, it's more like - his post affected your frigging ego that it mislead your head by typing shit.
Sometimes, it requires comprehension and understanding beyond normal thinking when reading certain stuff.
You don't become wise by saying some shitty analogy - it really made you look dumb there.
If I said "I am the top BH player" (which I can later justify that claim by saying I base that on situational awareness) you can see how that statement can lead someone into thinking I am the best BH player. Its quite amusing that I am not allowed to see other peoples intentions BUT you can(and somehow I am the one with a big ego?)
" because 6 YEARS experience is something" we dont see eye to eye on this"
"because 6 YEARS experience is something" and 50% winrate is something for a newbie whose experience is only few weeks/months.
It's kinda obvious, but you ignore it. So, I have lose my interest to continue this discussion. Thx
You ignore that while he will prob give some good advice but he will undoubtedly give just as much if not more bad advice. You say I am biased yet you keep saying YOU can predict the quality of advice(because 6 years playing a game means something to you) and I can not. As I said before you have to learn before you can teach.
While it is useful to filter out false/misleading information for your own edification ...and very young children need this to be done for them. I do not believe that dota 2 newbs should be treated like babies.
They may still be young (perhaps teenagers) but they are developmentally capable and experienced in life enough to be allowed to attempt to decide for themselves what is real and what is not. I have no doubt that everyone will continue to make some errors in judgment about what information to accept as fact throughout their life. But truth cannot really be accepted and understood...really believed to be truth, unless someone does it on their own. If they are taking dogmatic platitudes then they have only memorized a myth and do not really know it.
This is critically important for many more substantial truths but because the dota 2 newb is still a human it remains the best path for them to understanding as well. They must learn by deciding for themselves what to believe. Since there is really no reason for someone without knowledge to conclude that you are a superior expert to OP...all you accomplish by denouncing him is to make newbs decided you are some random self-important ass on the internet.
If you really wanted to dissuade them from accepting false information you should show why that information is false instead of attacking the messenger. Or if you thought you could do a better job coaching nubs why not positively advertise for your own services?
Every source contains information that can be misleading...even the word of God can be misunderstood. So the possibility that someone would be confused or deceived by something is not sufficient reason to try to prevent it from being available.
how will someone find that the correct information if no one corrects false information? I am in no way standing in front of people stopping them from doing anything I just put the facts out there. I personally dont think people who dont understand the basics should be teaching people because they will teach them what they know(which lack basics) that is my opinion and it is not a fact BUT there are people who share that same opinion (whether it is 1 person or a million) and they have the right to know what they are getting into.
I think OP does understand the basics. He has at least a few hundred games and is over 50% win. He says he played a lot of dota 1 and that is probably true given his dota 2 stats.
You are correct that he was exaggerating his resume in his first unedited post. But why does he have to be denounced as a charlatan when he just wanted to help nubs learn to play? Anyone who is not a nub will also easily come to the same conclusion you did that OP is not some pro player. If they don't, then it will be a good learning experience for them if not in dota...then in life so they will be more prepared to recognize fake experts in the future. Being fooled into temporarily listening to a fake dota expert for free is a very benign way to learn this lesson. Many have to learn it after losing a lot of money trying to deal with some important problem in their life.
Let the nubs learn for themselves. Its much more effective than you telling them who is or is not an expert. OP is no threat. Have some respect for the nubs ability to think for themselves. They are not stupid, just new to dota 2.
In so many areas of study I have found that the advice of the approved official "experts" is full of errors anyway. They often only know what the official "experts" taught them and they memorized it because people are trained to memorize mythological dogma instead of thinking for themselves. The internet is full of false information...but so are newspapers, textbooks, and encyclopedias. There are only a handful of modern "scientific" concepts that are really scientific in the sense that they really are experimentally proven true. Nearly every modern scientific idea is really a philosophy whose tenants are true in an extremely limited special case if at all...but people are taught to learn by memorizing dogma instead of thinking and testing. Its a basic life skill to learn to decide for yourself. Let the nubs try it.
Its amusing how OP isn't even here anymore and the debate over his skills continue.
Had OP charged for his services, I would view him rather negatively but he wanted to help others purely out of goodwill. To new players or bad ones, he would have definitely done more good than harm. For average players or veterans, I believe they would be capable of deciding whether the stuff he taught them would be beneficial or not.
Well, he's long gone anyway so everyone is getting incredibly off topic.
If you want coaching i guess people like purge are the best choice, hes not perfect but he understands his fails and explains why he shouldnt have done it (if he fails) otherwise he explains what hes doing and why.
Just watching his videos helps newbies alot id say.
relentless the problem with your theory is that you assume every player is going to search EVERY single page on dota and start comparing data. On some things yes I do alot of research into it but other times I get 1 or 2 opinions and just go with it, sure in a ideal world I would like all the facts but people just do have the time to do that for everything. This is why false information should be confronted because this could be their source of information.
He didn't offer any information yet. He just said he was willing to help someone learn the game and then like a million other average players announced that he believed he was good at dota...and compared to nubs he is good at dota.
I think some of the advice Purge offers is not the best too...but he is trying to be helpful and many people enjoy his videos. He actually makes a video format to help people learn...that's a lot more effort than I put in with boring walls of text. So he should be respected for the good work he has done rather than complaining about whatever disagreements we might have. It's not like we paid him for perfect information and he ripped us off...its free. Let people accept or reject it for themselves.
At least wait for OP to say something about dota before you attack. All he said was that he has entered tournaments and played dota for a long time...so have tons of bad dota players. If nubs don't know that so what? If you really want to inform people about how common it is that someone has played dota for years and still is avg bad...make a separate post about that. I played with a guy in dota 1 who has been playing since Euls and Ginsoo were doing the changes and after 6 years of dota he was still autoattacking. It took me 2 months of games to convince him to learn to stop doing it. Still if that guy wanted to help some nub learn...let him try.
I don't mind if nubs attempt to find good information and fail. They will try another source when it doesn't work...or they will go on failing at dota until they quit. That is their own fault. But when someone trys to help and is attacked and bullied into silence...that is a problem. That discourages others from coming forward to try to help.
He specifically told me to view this games and as you your self stated he exaggerated alot of what he was saying and I brought that information up. If someone is teaching geography and saying the world is flat saying "that is wrong" is not bullying it is bringing up relevant information. 'I don't mind if nubs attempt to find good information and fail' see this is where we split in ideology because personally I would rather get the right information then to waste my time filtering through tons of bad information
I would rather not waste my time filtering through bad information as well, but reality is there is no option but to filter tons of irrelevant and false information. Everyone has to do this every second of every day they are conscious and probably while sleeping as well. So we may as well admit that the world is full of lies and distractions instead of trying to hide from it.
You will accomplish more providing solid information than denouncing errors. Also I doubt anyone anywhere really believed the world was flat. Many ancient civilizations knew real global geography and calculated the size of the globe...several even circumnavigated it though history books tend to erroneously credit Magellan as first and Columbus as first to think of the idea. Meanwhile Columbus knew full well he was heading to a separate continent in the Atlantic and had old Roman maps of it before he left. The only trouble was that trade to the civilization called "nasca" now...that was what Rome and earlier empires (Greek, Persian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, etc) traded with and in Columbus time trade had been cut off for hundreds of years and there was good reason to believe the civilization may have collapsed...which it did, making it so much harder to get the gold and sliver trade back open...though the Spanish did eventualy re-establish it as planned. This stupid idea that he was trying for China is something modern historians made up all because they didn't want to believe his first hand account of what he did and why because he talks about God a lot in it and they don't like God. Even the bizzare, modern day "flat-earth" society is mostly a joke and doesn't really claim the world is flat in the sense that people tend to think of...they just claim its not a sphere.
I agree that it would be much more beneficial if I supply solid information and I do when any new player asks but this thread doesnt have that now does it :P
I don't see why almost everyone is bashing this guy? He offered his help for free. As many before have said, you really have no idea how much we actually do just on instincts rather than thought. And this is something that you gain by hours of practice if no one tells you what is actually going on.
Newbies would still need this time, but it's much easier when they kind of get the idea on what they have to do.
Anyway, don't bash people who would take their time to actually bring up the level of the players, appreciate them.
+Dorkly:
They guy only wanted to help new players for free.
So many hate.
@[FF]Sampson:
Why do you always have to be so negative and arrogant towards anybody you dislike in the forums? the guy just wanted to help, it's pretty rare thing nowadays.
in all the years I have gamed I've got to say the 10 years ago the community spirit was much higher in any game or forum, now is just depressing. You want to express your point of view? perfect! but do it with some sense please..
Somehow I've avoided all the flame here, I don't think I've ever been flamed or called nub except one time I said skele king was a sweet carry and someone said that was the dumbest statement ever. But generally if you don't act stupid or claim to be the best you don't get flamed.
If I was writing a paper and someone told me he got all A's in the course and he is willing to help me for free and I later find out he failed every single assignment he handed in and I used his notes for my paper the ONLY thing he did for me was waste my time and I have to start over again. I dont get how you think I have a personal vendetta against this guy I have never met. The only information I have from him was his in game performance which did not match what he illustrated in his first post. If I went around and told every new player dont buy boots it is not worth the gold ever I would not be doing anyone a favor. As I stated in my first post I appreciated the effort but what he was doing was only wasting peoples time
-> someone who has good intentions shows up
-> people write so much shit he leaves the community
well played
Jehovah witnesses have good intentions too.......
Your analogy is overblown. Anyone who would seek help from him without checking his stats would really be a nub and therefore could have really gained some knowledge from OP. The people whose time would be wasted would not have spent more than 10 seconds deciding that he couldn't help them.
gained some good information sure, gained bad information as well. Why would it be a good idea to give them the wrong information? This happens alot in Kendo(google it) in which new people try and 'teach' other newer people and for every good piece of advice they give they end up giving just as many if not more bad tips which really hurts the person being taught. While they might have good intentions they are not helping anyone in the long run
[FF]Sampson is my new hero.
[FF]Sampson learned Dota directly from Loda
He never read a random guide at the Internet
He never checked any information other than what's said by pros
Me too - in my first game, Mushi was coaching me.
Lol, noobs, at first it was Dendi coaching me but now it's the other way around.
Sampson, you have a good point and I'm willing to agree with you but in your place I'd leave the newbies to decide whether or not to contact that guy.
where did I say that? I said why give new people wrong information. I dont mean to offend anyone but players in the normal bracket do not understand the basics(my definition of basics include things like last hitting, denying, pulling etc.) of dota it is as simple as that. You have to learn before you can teach.
@winter I 100% agree it is up to the individual on what they want to do, I am merely giving them the information and then it is their own choice. As I have stated quite a few times my only issue with the post was how misleading it is
If his student is newbie or newbie+, then he has right to teach them because 6 YEARS experience is something. As a newbie, it's better to explore this harsh world of dota with a coach rather than wandering alone and being flamed all the time without given chance to learn what his mistake is. Most people only say YOU NOOB, REPORT or similar criticism without sufficient detail.
What about the wrong information? Let's compare of both disadvantage of those choices.
is _Learn Dota alone and flamed all them time_ better than _Being misinformed by coach_?
Nope. Hence the benefit outweigh the disadvantage
As i said before, this only apply for newbie/newbie+ students.
" because 6 YEARS experience is something" we dont see eye to eye on this
@Sampson
(quote)Jehovah witnesses have good intentions too.......(/quote)
You made my day, lol!
I was writing a reply for [FF]Sampson last night but decided to stop it because I thought he'd stop his arguments and feel bad for himself when OP decided to retract his intention.
But this newbie samspon keeps on coming strong.
Fyi, OP said he is at an advanced skill level and supported it with the fact that he has played Dota 1 for 6 yrs and have over 1k games in Dota 2. Now don't you frigging bend the measuring stick by saying you cannot be at an advanced skill level if you don't know how to do certain kind of things and how to play certain kind of heroes. Being "advanced" is a very subjective/relative term and if you just know how to comprehend certain stuff then you would easily understand what OP's measuring context is.
But since you got way too over your head and let your fingers started typing before your brain can process the words you have just read. Then you completely missed out the point that the post's intention was to help people.
Now we didn't miss understanding your posts intention - it is very straightforward. Any newbie will understand whatever you are trying to say and no - you are not saying that his post was misleading, it's more like - his post affected your frigging ego that it mislead your head by typing shit.
Sometimes, it requires comprehension and understanding beyond normal thinking when reading certain stuff.
You don't become wise by saying some shitty analogy - it really made you look dumb there.
"opinions are relative but your opinion is wrong"
If I said "I am the top BH player" (which I can later justify that claim by saying I base that on situational awareness) you can see how that statement can lead someone into thinking I am the best BH player. Its quite amusing that I am not allowed to see other peoples intentions BUT you can(and somehow I am the one with a big ego?)
" because 6 YEARS experience is something" we dont see eye to eye on this"
"because 6 YEARS experience is something" and 50% winrate is something for a newbie whose experience is only few weeks/months.
It's kinda obvious, but you ignore it. So, I have lose my interest to continue this discussion. Thx
You ignore that while he will prob give some good advice but he will undoubtedly give just as much if not more bad advice. You say I am biased yet you keep saying YOU can predict the quality of advice(because 6 years playing a game means something to you) and I can not. As I said before you have to learn before you can teach.
While it is useful to filter out false/misleading information for your own edification ...and very young children need this to be done for them. I do not believe that dota 2 newbs should be treated like babies.
They may still be young (perhaps teenagers) but they are developmentally capable and experienced in life enough to be allowed to attempt to decide for themselves what is real and what is not. I have no doubt that everyone will continue to make some errors in judgment about what information to accept as fact throughout their life. But truth cannot really be accepted and understood...really believed to be truth, unless someone does it on their own. If they are taking dogmatic platitudes then they have only memorized a myth and do not really know it.
This is critically important for many more substantial truths but because the dota 2 newb is still a human it remains the best path for them to understanding as well. They must learn by deciding for themselves what to believe. Since there is really no reason for someone without knowledge to conclude that you are a superior expert to OP...all you accomplish by denouncing him is to make newbs decided you are some random self-important ass on the internet.
If you really wanted to dissuade them from accepting false information you should show why that information is false instead of attacking the messenger. Or if you thought you could do a better job coaching nubs why not positively advertise for your own services?
Every source contains information that can be misleading...even the word of God can be misunderstood. So the possibility that someone would be confused or deceived by something is not sufficient reason to try to prevent it from being available.
Freedom of speech > Dogma
how will someone find that the correct information if no one corrects false information? I am in no way standing in front of people stopping them from doing anything I just put the facts out there. I personally dont think people who dont understand the basics should be teaching people because they will teach them what they know(which lack basics) that is my opinion and it is not a fact BUT there are people who share that same opinion (whether it is 1 person or a million) and they have the right to know what they are getting into.
I think OP does understand the basics. He has at least a few hundred games and is over 50% win. He says he played a lot of dota 1 and that is probably true given his dota 2 stats.
You are correct that he was exaggerating his resume in his first unedited post. But why does he have to be denounced as a charlatan when he just wanted to help nubs learn to play? Anyone who is not a nub will also easily come to the same conclusion you did that OP is not some pro player. If they don't, then it will be a good learning experience for them if not in dota...then in life so they will be more prepared to recognize fake experts in the future. Being fooled into temporarily listening to a fake dota expert for free is a very benign way to learn this lesson. Many have to learn it after losing a lot of money trying to deal with some important problem in their life.
Let the nubs learn for themselves. Its much more effective than you telling them who is or is not an expert. OP is no threat. Have some respect for the nubs ability to think for themselves. They are not stupid, just new to dota 2.
In so many areas of study I have found that the advice of the approved official "experts" is full of errors anyway. They often only know what the official "experts" taught them and they memorized it because people are trained to memorize mythological dogma instead of thinking for themselves. The internet is full of false information...but so are newspapers, textbooks, and encyclopedias. There are only a handful of modern "scientific" concepts that are really scientific in the sense that they really are experimentally proven true. Nearly every modern scientific idea is really a philosophy whose tenants are true in an extremely limited special case if at all...but people are taught to learn by memorizing dogma instead of thinking and testing. Its a basic life skill to learn to decide for yourself. Let the nubs try it.
Agreed, this forum is just hate after hate
Its amusing how OP isn't even here anymore and the debate over his skills continue.
Had OP charged for his services, I would view him rather negatively but he wanted to help others purely out of goodwill. To new players or bad ones, he would have definitely done more good than harm. For average players or veterans, I believe they would be capable of deciding whether the stuff he taught them would be beneficial or not.
Well, he's long gone anyway so everyone is getting incredibly off topic.
OP is living proof of how you can be playing a game for many years yet still suck at it.
On a serious note I wish there was some sort of person willing to coach.
The real thing isn't free.
If you want coaching i guess people like purge are the best choice, hes not perfect but he understands his fails and explains why he shouldnt have done it (if he fails) otherwise he explains what hes doing and why.
Just watching his videos helps newbies alot id say.
Pubs are so random that it's hard to actually take something from a game that's calculated and put it to use.
relentless the problem with your theory is that you assume every player is going to search EVERY single page on dota and start comparing data. On some things yes I do alot of research into it but other times I get 1 or 2 opinions and just go with it, sure in a ideal world I would like all the facts but people just do have the time to do that for everything. This is why false information should be confronted because this could be their source of information.
He didn't offer any information yet. He just said he was willing to help someone learn the game and then like a million other average players announced that he believed he was good at dota...and compared to nubs he is good at dota.
I think some of the advice Purge offers is not the best too...but he is trying to be helpful and many people enjoy his videos. He actually makes a video format to help people learn...that's a lot more effort than I put in with boring walls of text. So he should be respected for the good work he has done rather than complaining about whatever disagreements we might have. It's not like we paid him for perfect information and he ripped us off...its free. Let people accept or reject it for themselves.
At least wait for OP to say something about dota before you attack. All he said was that he has entered tournaments and played dota for a long time...so have tons of bad dota players. If nubs don't know that so what? If you really want to inform people about how common it is that someone has played dota for years and still is avg bad...make a separate post about that. I played with a guy in dota 1 who has been playing since Euls and Ginsoo were doing the changes and after 6 years of dota he was still autoattacking. It took me 2 months of games to convince him to learn to stop doing it. Still if that guy wanted to help some nub learn...let him try.
I don't mind if nubs attempt to find good information and fail. They will try another source when it doesn't work...or they will go on failing at dota until they quit. That is their own fault. But when someone trys to help and is attacked and bullied into silence...that is a problem. That discourages others from coming forward to try to help.
He specifically told me to view this games and as you your self stated he exaggerated alot of what he was saying and I brought that information up. If someone is teaching geography and saying the world is flat saying "that is wrong" is not bullying it is bringing up relevant information. 'I don't mind if nubs attempt to find good information and fail' see this is where we split in ideology because personally I would rather get the right information then to waste my time filtering through tons of bad information
I would rather not waste my time filtering through bad information as well, but reality is there is no option but to filter tons of irrelevant and false information. Everyone has to do this every second of every day they are conscious and probably while sleeping as well. So we may as well admit that the world is full of lies and distractions instead of trying to hide from it.
You will accomplish more providing solid information than denouncing errors. Also I doubt anyone anywhere really believed the world was flat. Many ancient civilizations knew real global geography and calculated the size of the globe...several even circumnavigated it though history books tend to erroneously credit Magellan as first and Columbus as first to think of the idea. Meanwhile Columbus knew full well he was heading to a separate continent in the Atlantic and had old Roman maps of it before he left. The only trouble was that trade to the civilization called "nasca" now...that was what Rome and earlier empires (Greek, Persian, Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, etc) traded with and in Columbus time trade had been cut off for hundreds of years and there was good reason to believe the civilization may have collapsed...which it did, making it so much harder to get the gold and sliver trade back open...though the Spanish did eventualy re-establish it as planned. This stupid idea that he was trying for China is something modern historians made up all because they didn't want to believe his first hand account of what he did and why because he talks about God a lot in it and they don't like God. Even the bizzare, modern day "flat-earth" society is mostly a joke and doesn't really claim the world is flat in the sense that people tend to think of...they just claim its not a sphere.
I agree that it would be much more beneficial if I supply solid information and I do when any new player asks but this thread doesnt have that now does it :P
Speak for yourself. I just added bunch of real information most people will never find on their own.