General Discussion

General Discussionriki as a core?

riki as a core? in General Discussion
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    it is very obvious that riki support is pretty much dead and a non-factor, both in pro meta and in pubs, and that osFrog sees him as a core hero based on the changes and stuff...

    so do you think it is (or is going to be) any viable?
    by 'viable' i mean not instant-report when picked and not 0% pickrate in high mmr pubs.

    ive been playing him on my 3k account as a sidelane core (mostly offlane, but if supports come with me then its like a pos1).
    with proper item timings (not the kind that you can get on a pos 4 salary) he feels very strong, carrying hard every game, new ult does so much dps...
    however its not a real comparison, because even though i stomp 3ks easier on riki core than on other heroes, its probably due to discrepancies between our skill more than the hero being good (and riki is a notorious low rank pubstomper ofc).

    also the previous changes to allow him to crit were unnoticed before, but with his new ulti i believe his 1.2k crits become a bit mroe relevant.

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    inx4c

      if u somehow can get past laning stage...
      coz u have 36 dmg lvl 1 and 279 movement speed, any offlaner can just shit on you
      but if you do somehow survive the laning stage and game doesnt end in 20 min, you will be really damn strong in late game
      probably need battlefury as a carry

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      390ms

        ^this
        Probably dual offlane or smth

        Dragy10

          has anyone beyond ancient tried this successfully? I would like to see the process of a successful riki core

          390ms

            There was some 5k+ safelane riki player who shitposted around here months ago

            I don't have his profile bookmarked, though

            Dragy10

              why would you have anyones profile bookmarked if I may ask?

              390ms

                I don't

                yorgaSh

                  I think Riki is still good at certain games. Sure, if you go either trilane or a very good dual lane (or maybe against a passive solo offlane enemy) he can go pos 1-ish. But he is still good starting out pos 4 and progressing into a heavy hitter.

                  In more serious games I can see how with good support he gets a decent laning. After a bfury he can ulti farm 4 stack ancients and then get real core.

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                    1st of all, there is evidence of Liquid.Miracle- winning the highest tier battlecup playing position 1 riki. at the very least.

                    2nd, im sure i myself would prefer to get a hero killing item such as diffusal or yasha, or drums in most games before the battlefury, as riki is very strong early on and you probably dont want to waste your early power levels just farming (something among the lines of like jugg yasha before bf, or slark sb before bf, brewmaster midas after blink, you get my idea). as in, you need to actually get the map control and space before going back for your farming item.

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                    Talker

                      Dota Bowie played him as core with vanilla bf. But IT was 1x1 with mirana who left him afk farming.

                      Not something i see in my pubs. Usually safelaner Is left 1x1 when He can shit in enemy offlane.

                      yorgaSh

                        Depends on how much you want farmgame.
                        Anyhow I guess without looking at that this Miracle game (I see he had echo) abused the echo saber bug, that is basically 4 hits in no time. You see echo went off as soon as riki activated ulti, but it didn't go on cooldown, so cancel ulti and blink for additional 2hits. It was quite effective.

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                          that was over a year ago lul, now riki is probably even stronger than then (new ulti does more than 2x the dps of the old one on single targets, not a joke).

                          AvoNKraD

                            Since it hits twice as fast on first level, and 2.5x as fast on max level, I'd say you don't have to be a rocket scientist to get to that conclusion. :D

                            yorgaSh

                              If only more than 2x, but it's more like 3x or even 4x on most support snipes.

                              You know why? Because if you go for a fast kill a support gets out of his ult before he could hit twice after initial (1 sec cooldown, 2 seconds and only 2 hits), but with 0.4 sec cd he gets in a good 4 times in addition (so 1.6 seconds till 5 hits).

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                                didnt the old riki ult used to hit instantly as cast though? the new one does too, but that means the 1st second has 2 hits in the old ultimate (hit at 0 and hit at 1), so the new ult is not THAT big of a buff (its still a 3x in 2 seconds, 6 hits until the 2nd second instead of 3 hits).

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                                  the change also means that if irki was a core, he would have a rather flaxible item build - daedalus, rapier, nullifier - the defining core hero items are suddenly very much viable on the hero (unlike before).

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                                  yorgaSh

                                    "rapier" "defining core hero item"

                                    :)

                                    But you are right for some of the other parts.

                                    Zemo-san

                                      isnt that riki game from ti times? how is that usefull for the converstion op?

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                                        riki being played as a core in the highest ranks and winning

                                        the ultimate changed, some other stuff too, but the hero is still pretty much the same.

                                        Zemo-san

                                          yes the hero is pretty much the same but the complete meta has shifted from this time

                                          here is a replay of necro mid from that time
                                          a few skills were changed but the hero is pretty much the same, go play necro mid

                                          Chiwa

                                            Rush nullifier

                                            Karma Fields

                                              for me you need some sort of setup or a "vehicle" for riki to make him work (dark seer boosts his lane presence and has great way to setup for riki, magnus has also a good setup and some steroids^^) but i dont think thats enough to make him a core.
                                              his kill-potential increased a lot with the ult rework (esp with diffu and a weak support) but thats what makes a pos 4 hero (has kill threat with +1, is mobile, has a somewhat disable, hard to catch) and not a core (who shoukld be able to take buildings or go toe to toe with the enemy carry, like an antimage or spectre)....

                                              yorgaSh

                                                TeenTitans, your definition of a core is a bit misguided.

                                                Also Riki can definitely go toe to toe with most cores. Smoke into diffu into ulti you want to leave that place ASAP, and Riki stays invulnerable.

                                                DickTheQuick

                                                  The biggest problem for core riki right now is amount of demotivation during draft on your team side. Probably in 5 or 6k it wouldn't happen but in 3k if you mark safe lane with riki its "WTF safe lane riki? penopt riki gg ff"

                                                  Then if you lose even if you are top KDA, top hero damage and top farm, most likely you gonna get blamed for failure regardless the truth.

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                                                  Gopnik

                                                    Hero is in a horrible niche. Hes too stronk in low mmr brackets, since ppl cant buy dust and punish a bad laning stage but just crap in higher lvl games.

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                                                      Rush nullifier

                                                      after difussal(good vs linken too)/sny and battlefury for sure now KreyGasm mayeb even instead of bfury

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                                                      chow9325

                                                        late game riki lacks the damage to be a core. If u think 6 slots...boots, diffusal,fury, heart, abyssal, bkb...bkb and heart because riki is really easy to kill. he's perfect for putting in the finishing blow but lacks the instant kill trait of most cores.

                                                        Soul Eater

                                                          He is invisinle and invulnerable, why would you buy heart on this hero

                                                          2
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                                                            XD press nullifier diffusal from invis XD press r win game

                                                            NA+Cl.YB`a

                                                              Nullifier is N U T S

                                                              Ayase  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                                                                Tried playing riki as a core. The match id can be found HERE

                                                                Laning phase is very hard. Cant jungle very well (unless you have battle fury). I think I have my fury at around 22mins, which is very late.

                                                                His ulti is now a lot better than it was before. It was like a jugg omnislash, except it dont land on creeps. You can solo kill a support if you can catch him alone.

                                                                Core riki is good, but I think not good enough compare to other carry coz he is easily harass by an offlaner.

                                                                His lvl25 talent are broken though.

                                                                ntp.schadenfreude

                                                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EjqJkCCkDI

                                                                  Ace played Riki carry with Battle Fury into Aghs

                                                                  Taylor Hill <3

                                                                    How have u guys found this hero after the change?

                                                                    I’ve found him pretty annoying and I feel he has pretty big impact even without much farm.

                                                                    Pls post your thoughts

                                                                    M u r d e r

                                                                      feels very legit and strong in this 3k mmr :v

                                                                      an interesting thing is, that you can micro your manta illusions during your ultimate, further increasing your DPS or even bodyblocking players from exiting your ultimate

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                                                                      390ms

                                                                        You'd most likely already won the game if you have manta but okay

                                                                        Ayase  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

                                                                          Riki's talent on lvl25 is broken as f~.

                                                                          But whats the lvl25 talent?

                                                                          I think the cloak and dagger doesnt reveal is OP as f~, but the +400 tricks of trade AOE is also OP on its own rights.

                                                                          According to stats, the AOE tricks of trade had a +3.1% winrate than the other one. Pickrate is also +3.9% higher.

                                                                          I choose the cloak and dagger doesnt reveal though. But whatever talents you choose on his lvl25, its OP as F~

                                                                          I BELIEVE MYSELF

                                                                            Pos 3 then

                                                                            NA+Cl.YB`a

                                                                              Invis not revealing isn't OP, it does nothing against the inevitable detection people buy against riki

                                                                              M u r d e r

                                                                                @370ms the fok you talking about?
                                                                                you sound almost as if you arent a skilled player, you cant just say that having some item on a core hero means you auto-win lul.

                                                                                AM has battlefury WE LOST BOIS GG

                                                                                Rocket

                                                                                  Don't see how he can ever be the optimal choice for a pos 1. sacrificing an early diffusal for a battlefury seems a waste of an early power spike.

                                                                                  he could start as a pos 3 in a dual lane and then move up to pos 2 if you don't have a scaling mid I suppose.

                                                                                  hashtag archon reporting for duty sir.

                                                                                  Slayer

                                                                                    MATCH ID 3815341601

                                                                                    Core Riki late game = auto win if you have people to pocket you.

                                                                                    Karma Fields

                                                                                      so i played around a little bit with riki. and his new ultimate with agha+diffu is enough to just go and kill a no bkb ck doubling or tripling your networth. and even with a bkb you just need a aeon disc mate to pocket you oO hero has to be somehwat legit as a core^^ but when you are not stupid af riki can be the roamer and create as much impact as a core later on

                                                                                      不運な男

                                                                                        Riki is good on higher level of pubs now if he builds deffusal then smoke + ult you have no escape

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                                                                                          i think you meant -when your enemies are stupid af you can be the roamer and have the same impact as a core-

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                                                                                          miiigz

                                                                                            Riki pos 5 is my favorite support for the vision game. You get so much space for your team.

                                                                                            NA+Cl.YB`a

                                                                                              @murder
                                                                                              It has nothing to do with how good the item is
                                                                                              If u can afford manta as a luxury item on Riki then ur so farmed that u probably won
                                                                                              It's not "gg Riki manta we won"
                                                                                              It's "gg Riki super farmed we most likely won"

                                                                                              Robíček

                                                                                                If you want an inspiration you can check my dotabuff. I was(am) a little Riki spammer. I am ancient 3 / solo mmr 4300 player. And I had proven to myself that playing riki as core n1 is legit in almost every 4k pub game. Unfortunately many games you must persuade your teamnates of this legitimity. If you dual with strong harras support / triline and get your diffuz in time (ideal before 15min mark) you become a nightmare for enemy and are able to win almost every teamfight with good timing/precision using your abilities. Always going for PT,Aquilla,Diff,Yasha - then open choice (SaY/Manta,abbys,daedalus)

                                                                                                Robíček

                                                                                                  The most complicated thing with riki core playing is flaming in yours team or letting you solo lane against good offlane. If you survive laning stage and get some needed farm, you have good chance to win the big majority of the games. If you get diffuz near to 18-20minutes you can still get back to game (not give up) but the chances get lower and lower..

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                                                                                                  Imprecis

                                                                                                    He is nearly a free win if not shut down in the laning stage, but the problem is that he is easy to shut down. He basically requires 2 supports constantly in the lane.

                                                                                                    Robíček

                                                                                                      Totally agree with you. One of best combination is AA (5) + Sand King (4) + Riki (1). Win 80-90% with this with party public play.